Talk me out of it

[Jankowske]

So I was checking out cymbal sound files the other day, mostly on sabian and meinl's sites, clicking through crashes and trying to see what all is out there (I found out...there's too much.) My 16" bronze rock scimitar doesn't actually sound too bad, but it's just a little too focused and it has some cheap harsh something going on. Still pretty good though for just being a scimitar. I've been trying to save up to get a rack setup, but I'm also looking out for a new crash since I might be doing some recording soon.My last trip to guitar center left me thoroughly unamazed with their selection, except I did like the 16 aaxplosion. And they had a nice trashy dark K, too, but it didn't seem that versatile.

Anyways, I was perusing all these sound files and demo videos. The aaxplosion still sounded alright, most everything else was too trashy or clunky or bland or whatever, and then BAM that one sounded really good. I fell in love with the stupid 16" sabian artisan crash. I got really excited, got less excited when I realized it's about $400, got really irritated when I found out (on here) that MF had it for $150 a few months ago, and then gave up.

Now I found a decent deal on one and I'm really leaning towards blowing a lot of drum rack money on it. The problem is that I can't play it in person before I buy it, and I have also heard that they're pretty thin. On the other hand, I listened to at least four good recordings of that same model, and there's quite a bit of variation between individuals, but I still really liked them all. Also, even though I play metal, I'm not a heavy hitter and I use 5As.

Yeas? Nays? Anybody else play this or have this? I am very conflicted.

 

[Bishop]

I got a K Dark Thin Crash yesterday and it is what I expected from the recordings I heard. I've bought from GC without hearing the exact cymbal I got, They have a 30 day return policy, and will only be out the shipping cost ($7) if I don't like it.

So, if you can return it then you really won't be out much.

 

[eclipseownzu]

The AAX-plosion is my favorite cymbal. I play the 18, and Im not really a fan of cymbals any smaller than 18", but I think they are the best crashes on the market.

The artisan cymbals tend to be a little on the thin side from what I have seen, but they are absolutely amazing. I got a chance to play on several of them during the vault tour last year and was very impressed.

I am a hard hitter and I play in situations where my cymbals are rarely mic'd so volume is an important attribute in my cymbal selection. If you are just looking for great sounding cymbals that are going to be very versitile, you cant go wrong with the artisan crashes.

 

[Nour Ayasso]

Honestly both situations you might want to reconsider. If you're tight on money let me just say the cymbal hunt will NEVER end. They're going to keep breakin' 'n' your wallets gonna keep shrinkin' lol seriously though it will never end. If you are looking to record though, then you could label this cymbal as "recording only" to extend it's life span.

Have you ever used a rack or tried one? They're a bigger pain then you think. less hardware buuuut the pieces can only fit in certain cars. There's also the problem of setting them up, if there not put together correctly or not memory locked then set up will be inconstant. I have OCD so it bothers the SH*T outta me but maybe not you.

In the end if you really like the cymbal you should get it, but it's just a pice of the puzzle. What's more prioritized; the sound of your cymbals or your hardware? I wouldn't know only you know. What I do know is that CL is your answer. 400 bucks for one cymbal can be a rack and two other cymbals on CL, or any other used gear method.
Oh and btw 5A for metal? No...just no...

 

[Duck Tape]

Hhx evolution are cheaper. I've got an 18", it's pretty nice. A good metal crash, maybe just a bit cold.

 

[Jankowske]

Thanks for the feedback, guys!

This is on the bay and unfortunately this seller doesn't take returns. Also Bishop, what size did you get? My school had the 14 and I played it a lot.

I was actually thinking about keeping the scimitar around for gigs and just using the artisan for practice and studio. I think I have pretty good technique and I don't mercilessly spank my cymbals, but I do tend to get a bit bashier at gigs, and they rarely have overheads. It'll probably feel like going back to a mediocre ex after marrying a supermodel, but the audience isn't going to miss something they never had.

I have gotten hands-on with racks before and I'm a complete gear nut, so I'm pretty sure what I have in mind will actually help my setup. I just want a really minimalistic rack with one main bar to start and I wanna memory lock the crap out of it. I play 3 up 1 down and not a lot of pies so I should be able to get everything but my ride and floor tom on it while getting rid of 3 stands and freeing up my kick drum. Also I have been scouring craigslist and ebay and I would like to get as much as possible used.

I do really like a few of the evolutions I've heard; maybe I'll give them another listen. Also they're apparently super durable. Have you seen the video where the sabian guy bends one like a taco shell and it's still fine?

Sleeping on this didn't really help much. The problem is that it's not just a rack or a cymbal, there's MILLIONS of material things that I want...nay, NEED to blow all of my money on for my drum set. But I do need a new crash sooner or later, and since this one's used, hopefully I won't be out too much if I ever resell it. Which is highly unlikely because of how much I like the sound of it. Did I mention that I want a new omni even though my 20" heavy K is perfectly fine? Or that I think it would be a good idea to internally mic my kick and toms? Or that I've been ogling Guru and Tama Star drums? I have a problem.

And the 5A is where it's at for metal. Also 8-10-12-14 unmuffled and an intact fiberskyn dip for my bass reso. Metal \m/,

 

[Nour Ayasso]

Thanks for the feedback, guys!
I was actually thinking about keeping the scimitar around for gigs and just using the artisan for practice and studio. I think I have pretty good technique and I don't mercilessly spank my cymbals, but I do tend to get a bit bashier at gigs, and they rarely have overheads. It'll probably feel like going back to a mediocre ex after marrying a supermodel, but the audience isn't going to miss something they never had.

I have gotten hands-on with racks before and I'm a complete gear nut, so I'm pretty sure what I have in mind will actually help my setup. I just want a really minimalistic rack with one main bar to start and I wanna memory lock the crap out of it. I play 3 up 1 down and not a lot of pies so I should be able to get everything but my ride and floor tom on it while getting rid of 3 stands and freeing up my kick drum. Also I have been scouring craigslist and ebay and I would like to get as much as possible used.

Sleeping on this didn't really help much. The problem is that it's not just a rack or a cymbal, there's MILLIONS of material things that I want...nay, NEED to blow all of my money on for my drum set.

And the 5A is where it's at for metal. Also 8-10-12-14 unmuffled and an intact fiberskyn dip for my bass reso. Metal \m/,

No problem man, and yeah separating your gear for recording and gigs is really helpful. Thought you said you liked the scimitar though? And as I recall those aren't made anymore, should save that as well. Being bashier at gigs is the problem is definitely gonna kill off cymbals, not saying dial it down but just don't use precious gear

Ah so a rack would be very ideal in your case, just the front rack is even cheaper too. You know if you ever lean away from that cymbal you could get everything used. T

Yes drumming will always be more expensive and will always be needing new replacements/repairs. Gotta do what you love, but have you ever considered cutting down on gear? that's a possibility, also on the contrary, having a rack definitely opens up more cymbal opportunities. Unlike drums cymbals don't take up so much space when packed away so I end up using around 11+ cymbals and it's not even annoying to setup/breakdown

Ah for some reason I was thinking of 7A, got them mixed up. Still isn't 5A too small? 5B is as small as I go for rock genres and beyond. I know they're light and all but they're soooo weak for genres like metal. 8 - 14 is pretty awesome but it depends if your the guy that cranks those up or not. I personally rock 10 - 14 in low tunings so it sounds awesome. I'm also an Anup Sastry fan and he uses 10 - 14 as well so I learned it's doable haha

 

[Jankowske]

The scimitar is alright; more than good enough for gigs but I'm not in love with its sound. It's been recorded before, and it's suprisingly clean and not clanky for being so cheap, but the artisan just blows it away.

Eleven cymbals? Damn. I've got hats, crash, crash-ride, ride, china and sometimes a splash, and 90% of what I do doesn't really need the splash or china. And I've cut down on gear before, but I don't think I have much more to pare away. Really the only thing "extra" I have to most people would be my 8" tom, which gets used a lot. And the smaller tom sizes save a lot of space. I tune mine pretty low, too. My kit's an X7 and I just don't play the 16 anymore.

I'm not sure if I would save any money by having less drums and more cymbals. I've cracked cymbals before (mostly cheap brass ones), but I have a hard time breaking drumheads. But you're right about cymbals not taking up much room packed up. One time I was organizing my school's gear and I crammed well over a dozen big heavy marching and concert crashes and a few smaller ones all into the same bag. I swear that thing was over 50 pounds...but I got it all in one bag!

I used to only use 7As. Then I moved up to 5Bs and 2Bs when I got really into marching snare, which pretty much broke my technique with light sticks. A few broken cymbals later, I ditched practicing with corpsmasters for an hour or two every day and forced myself to learn to use 5As on the kit. My drums are very loud even though I don't think I'm really a heavy hitter, but I haven't noticed it being any louder with bigger sticks. More choked, maybe. And my speed suffers with big sticks. Wood tip 5As for me.

 

[Nour Ayasso]

The scimitar is alright; more than good enough for gigs but I'm not in love with its sound. It's been recorded before, and it's suprisingly clean and not clanky for being so cheap, but the artisan just blows it away.

Eleven cymbals? Damn. I've got hats, crash, crash-ride, ride, china and sometimes a splash, and 90% of what I do doesn't really need the splash or china. And I've cut down on gear before, but I don't think I have much more to pare away. Really the only thing "extra" I have to most people would be my 8" tom, which gets used a lot. And the smaller tom sizes save a lot of space. I tune mine pretty low, too. My kit's an X7 and I just don't play the 16 anymore.

I'm not sure if I would save any money by having less drums and more cymbals. I've cracked cymbals before (mostly cheap brass ones), but I have a hard time breaking drumheads. But you're right about cymbals not taking up much room packed up. One time I was organizing my school's gear and I crammed well over a dozen big heavy marching and concert crashes and a few smaller ones all into the same bag. I swear that thing was over 50 pounds...but I got it all in one bag!

I used to only use 7As. Then I moved up to 5Bs and 2Bs when I got really into marching snare, which pretty much broke my technique with light sticks. A few broken cymbals later, I ditched practicing with corpsmasters for an hour or two every day and forced myself to learn to use 5As on the kit. My drums are very loud even though I don't think I'm really a heavy hitter, but I haven't noticed it being any louder with bigger sticks. More choked, maybe. And my speed suffers with big sticks. Wood tip 5As for me.

Yeah I do the whole ambidextrous thing so I like to have a lot of choices, I pretty much have two of every cymbal so my bag weighs like 30 lbs haha and yeah the 8" is small so it's not really a problem. I just think of drums as the only hassle because all the cymbals can fit in one bag as well as my rack is just three pieces so theres no big deal there either.

I hope I didn't say you'd save on using more cymbals, because you don't unless they're all cheap haha I meant if you use a rack you can add cymbals with ease with having to rearrange all your stands.

Oh you marched? That's cool to hear, I did as well which is why I still use corpsmaster sticks. They ad a lot to the volume, but only in rim shots and cymbals imo. But tone wise theres way more power and definition. And actually I don't agree with them making a difference in speed. I can only play faster with skinny sticks by a few bpm if anything. And since I'm more comfortable with bigger sticks technically I'm faster with them.

 

[Jankowske]

I can just imagine all 11 of your cymbals whimpering in fear as you pull out a pair of Hardimons to punish them with. Do you play mostly Z3s and Alphas and the like? That's cool that you're not sacrificing any speed even with giant sticks. How often do you go through heads?

Also I totally pulled the trigger on that cymbal. I almost regret it already, but I guess I won't know until it gets here. There goes a paycheck.

 

[Nour Ayasso]

I can just imagine all 11 of your cymbals whimpering in fear as you pull out a pair of Hardimons to punish them with. Do you play mostly Z3s and Alphas and the like? That's cool that you're not sacrificing any speed even with giant sticks. How often do you go through heads?

Also I totally pulled the trigger on that cymbal. I almost regret it already, but I guess I won't know until it gets here. There goes a paycheck.

Haha yeah Hardimon's are still my favorite stick. It's funny because "fatbacks" by Vater are practically the same weight as Hardimon's just because they'e so dense compared to Vic Firths quality dried sticks. They'e twice the size but feel just as light and have better rebound! I thought the same as you at first but overtime I feel more confident about not breaking cymbals. Not so much on thin cymbals though...you can really feel the stick dig in, I've had to retire all those away off my kit. I'd say I more on the heavy side on hitting too, not bashing, just full 12" strokes most the time. Some cymbals suffer more than others, some aren't even effected. I don't use strictly Zildjian (though I wouldn't mind) I use a large variety of cheap to expensive modified cymbals. My wuhan china isn't modified and has been through quite some hell. I use to play like crap and beat my cymbals specifically the china because you know those breakdowns haha I've even loaned it to friends and it still has yet to crack. I really don't break cymbals unless I bash 'em live or they're just too thin like aax sabians. I basically destroyed both of them lol Amongst all my random cymbals I've haven't broken any except I recently cracked my zildjian ZBT hi hats in two spots. It pissed me off but I think it's because I was jamming and got too into it and did some bashin' hahaha I don't break heads at all really, it's very rare. I've broken the snare heads off my used snares, who knows how old those heads were and what they went through! Hardimons will dent and kill the tone quicker of course, they'll make the "sunken head" effect happen real quick. But generally all my gear doesn't get effected unless I'm really bashing. The same goes for skinny sticks, just multiply the width of the stick and the multiplies the damage that CAN be done.

Hey man live it up! In music sometimes what you want is a better choice than what's important. I'm sot of an impulse buys so I tend to buy stuff left and right if it makes me happy! I had to buy the Oriental China since I was such a huge Matt Greiner, finally had 300 bucks to spar and bought that sucker! The rack and other needy crap can wait, enjoy the cymbal dude! Tell me how it sounds as well!

 

[MatrixClaw]

My 16" Artisan Crash is the best sounding crash I've ever heard. Sounds A-M-A-Z-I-N-G! I really wish I would've bought more when they were on sale, but I didn't think it was going to blow me away quite this much... I would've bought 2 more and had a pair of hats, plus a crash.

Oh well

 

[Jankowske]

Nour Ayasso, by modified cymbals do you mean like the ones I see on ebay that have had cracks cut out of them and such? I've thought about getting some of those before. If so, how has your experience been with those?

Hey MatrixClaw, once I get mine we can get together and rub our crashes together like horizontal hihats in a candlelit room while making little burbling noises. No homo.

But yeah, it gets here wednesday at the earliest. Can't wait!

 

[Nour Ayasso]

My 16" Artisan Crash is the best sounding crash I've ever heard. Sounds A-M-A-Z-I-N-G! I really wish I would've bought more when they were on sale, but I didn't think it was going to blow me away quite this much... I would've bought 2 more and had a pair of hats, plus a crash.

Oh well

Lol a pair of hats! I've tried that before with my two AAX 16" crashes, surprisingly waaay too trashy.

Nour Ayasso, by modified cymbals do you mean like the ones I see on ebay that have had cracks cut out of them and such? I've thought about getting some of those before. If so, how has your experience been with those?

Hey MatrixClaw, once I get mine we can get together and rub our crashes together like horizontal hihats in a candlelit room while making little burbling noises. No homo.

But yeah, it gets here wednesday at the earliest. Can't wait!

Yeah my two AAX crashes look like that because they're too thin. But modifying more along the lines of hand hammering, adding patina, shaping, sound holes, and recently some experiments...hehehe yeah I modify my cymbals, I'm not a cymbalsmith, buuuut I'm heading there (sorta) it's more of a hobby, that revolves around OCD. I started off by cutting out cracks to save my cymbals which lead me down a path of modification. Cutting out cracks works fine, saves your cymbal, and doesn't effect the tone (depending on the crack) except on thin cymbals. Thin cymbals can't take a beating so they don't handle cracks very well either. ALL my AAX series are basically retired, both AAX 16" crashes and 19" extreme china all got major cracks. So I'd fix, then they'd crack again, fix again, then they cracked again etc until finally I stopped using them. Note this was back I used thinner sticks as well so they weren't under any abnormal stress. Still, you couldn't freakin stop those things from cracking. I use cracking cymbals in stacks so I get good use out of them, also in a stack they don't break as fast so I also get more life out of them.

PS: use the quote button to quote people directly, and the button next to it allows you to quote multiple people.

 

[customdrum]

why buy new? go look an ebay for used crashes and save alot of money in the end on anything drum related, all 70+ cymbals, drumsets, bags, sticks, u name it i have owned came from ebay except my new apx setup with was cheaper from musicians friend than u can buy on ebay used. i would never buy new unless i had money to burn and go to mycymbal.com for sound samples

 

[porter]

Use good technique and your worries melt away. I've cracked one crash (having always played thinner than medium crashes) ever and that was before I knew how to hit them. Now I play with a Byzance Vintage crash (among others), which is even thinner than an Evolution, and no worries. Thinner cymbals theoretically should be more durable than heavier ones due to their flex.

(By good technique, I mean a) don't hit the cymbal pointing towards the center of it- use a glancing blow to the side b) don't "push through" the cymbal- always strike and bring your stick back out quickly, and c) try to keep the angle between your stick and the cymbal as low as possible by checking how you hit the cymbal and tilting it accordingly.)

Artisans are great. If you want another cymbal similar in sound later, try looking at some of the thinner Byzance Traditional or Brilliant crashes. They're a bit more affordable.

Enjoy your cymbal!

 

[MatrixClaw]

Hey MatrixClaw, once I get mine we can get together and rub our crashes together like horizontal hihats in a candlelit room while making little burbling noises. No homo.

lololol

Lol a pair of hats! I've tried that before with my two AAX 16" crashes, surprisingly waaay too trashy.

Like any other hi-hat pair, you have to find them in weights that work together. My Artisan with a Zildjian Armand or Paiste 404 bottom worked pretty well. Both were just a bit too clangy for me.

 

[Jankowske]

So this cymbal is supposed to get here Thursday. Everyone at work is already well aware (most two or three times over by now) that I spent a bunch of money on some chunk of metal and that I'm excited about it. Thursday is entirely too far away.

Also the guy I got it from apparently has more. Here's almost the same one (same listing): http://www.ebay.com/itm/16-Sabian-Artisan-Crash-Cymbal-IN-BAG-NEVER-USED-vault-hand-hammered-hh-/331324635707?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d247cba3b There's no way I was ever gonna shell out the $370 to get it new-new, but 250 isn't bad for supposedly brand-spankin'-unhandled. I could have got the AAXplosion for 120.

Other recent impulse buys include a bar of goat's milk soap, a MTG artwork limited print signed by the artist, and 3 lbs. of potato salad.

 

[Nour Ayasso]

So this cymbal is supposed to get here Thursday. Everyone at work is already well aware (most two or three times over by now) that I spent a bunch of money on some chunk of metal and that I'm excited about it. Thursday is entirely too far away.

Lol I hear ya,every time I drop bank on a new musical investment everyone's just like "...so you spent a thousand bucks on a piece of wood???" lol you can't explain it to them in 5 seconds haha