Spinning hi-hat.

Mr_Runner

Well-known member
Hi again my hi-hat pad seems to be spinning on my hi-hat stand as part of my Roland TD-27KV setup. I don't think it's the rod that's screwed into the base area of the stand as I checked it out and seems to be securely screwed into place. Also when my hi-hat is spinning the rod isn't loose or needs to be turned to tighten it. I heard that someone put something perhaps on their stand in order to physically stop the hi-hat from turning but not a lot of detail was given in comparison to the rod type fix. I'll check it out again though just incase.
 

Mr_Runner

Well-known member
Hi ok I've looked into this a bit more and at first I heard that my setup regarding the spinning hi-hat may not be 'too' bad as the hi-hat was spinning only about 90 degrees and also in an anti-clockwise direction which apparently means that it isn't to do with the rod being loose (which again I suspected originally as discussed above) as if that was the case the hi-hat would have been spinning in a clockwise direction apparently.

Anyway more recently the hi-hat has been spinning a little more than 90 degrees, perhaps midway between 90 and 180. I have noticed that I've been losing sound at this point and at any more than 90 degrees approximately. The hi-hat mainly spins when opening and closing the hi-hat and a Rockschool track that I've been doing requires me to do a good bit of open and close hi-hat work and this is where I've been experiencing the decrease in sound due to it spinning a bit too much. I know that's due to the hi-hat sensor being I think over 180 degrees of the cymbal half that faces you with the 'Roland' logo being on the other side away from your playing position providing it stays in that position. I think this other side with the 'Roland' logo hasn't a sensor on that 180 degree side at least that's how the underside of the cymbal has been labelled but the sound definitely decreases around here and you seem to lose functionality as you head towards that side. Perhaps it's just picking up a weaker sound from where the sensor is. The hi-hat doesn't seem to spin generally speaking when the hi-hat is closed or even continually open but I can't say for sure when continually open as I haven't been using it like that for as long periods.

The stand I've been using with the hi-hat is a Mapex Tornado stand which although at the lower end seemed ok and my opinion of Mapex stands seems to be ok generally speaking and I also heard they were ok. However I've been advised that the problem may indeed be the Mapex Tornado stand and have been advised to try the Mapex H400 stand which 'may' fix the problem. I did say to the person giving me this advice that what if the Mapex H400 stand didn't fix the problem? He said there was a 2 week refund on it if that occurred. I would go to the store and try some out but it's a bit further away from where I live. However if I try the Mapex H400 stand and it doesn't fix the problem, I may be forced to go to the shop in person and try to straighten it out.

I was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this? I heard that generally speaking acoustic hi-hat stands aren't specifically designed to be used with electric hi-hats and even the one(s) that Roland suggest from their brand I think. I guess it doesn't matter that much if an acoustic hi-hat spins in comparison to an electric one. I guess it's too much to expect that a manufacturer of acoustic hi-hat stands has more or less addressed any problems when their stand(s) are used with electric hi-hats and could incur significant expense with any redesigns etc although if they did they could perhaps corner a section of the market? By doing so it could affect the stands use with an acoustic one saying that so from this they'd probably have to design a specific stand to work with electric hi-hats. When I was researching which new electric kit to get a few people said they thought the hi-hat setup with the pedal and wire (which seems more common on cheaper kits) was actually better function wise I think than the acoustic hi-hat stand setup which seems more common on the more expensive kits generally speaking I found. Maybe all this is true at least design wise.
 

Intruder

Senior Member
Never mind. I guess it is the vh-10.
Make sure everything is good and tight on the clutch and stand.
Your stand may not be heavy duty enough to overcome the weight and twisting of the cymbal.
Most e-hihats are heavier than acoustic because of all the different parts of them.
Good luck.
 

Mr_Runner

Well-known member
Never mind. I guess it is the vh-10.
Make sure everything is good and tight on the clutch and stand.
Your stand may not be heavy duty enough to overcome the weight and twisting of the cymbal.
Most e-hihats are heavier than acoustic because of all the different parts of them.
Good luck.
Hi I'm very sorry about the late reply, I haven't been well for the last few days but seem to be on the mend now I hope. You're right about the VH-10 being the hi-hat model, I thought you were talking about the stand at first. I think everything is good and tight on the clutch and stand as I've checked that the clutch and rod seem to be tight enough I hope although I don't like altering the clutch as that can change the settings when setting up the offset adjustment on the hi-hat I think but like I said before it seems to be tight.

You could be right regarding my stand and I'm hoping it's something to do with that as at present I don't know what else it could be. As I was saying before my Mapex Tornado stand (H200 I think) seems ok but it is at the lower end or even lowest of the Mapex stand line but that seemed ok as I seem to think Mapex stands are ok at least from what I've seen at the lower end though saying that. I could try the Mapex H400 stand which I've been advised 'may' solve the problem but I'd have to try it out to see. It is a more expensive stand at about £50 compared to the Mapex Tornado stand at about £30.

Either way again I'm very sorry about the late reply and your reply was genuinely and greatly appreciated.

Thanks again and I could update this thread when I have more info.
 

Mr_Runner

Well-known member
The Mapex H400 stand seems to have solved the problem perhaps because it is a more robust stand which was some of the advice here so that was greatly appreciated. It's one up I think from my H200 which maybe right at the lowest end.

Actually within some of the instructions and info that came with the Roland TD-27KV there were some diagrams and dimensions regarding 'compatible hi-hat stands' with regards to the 'right' width of the rod in several places in mm / inches. I had actually seen this info previously when setting up my kit but maybe I skimmed it a bit as it didn't seem as important at that time and before the problem had occurred. I did see it again a day or two before trying out the H400 ironically and things can go like that with stuff in life - sometimes some of the answers come when you're getting towards the end of things or even after. All part of the 'learning curve' perhaps sometimes. However I'm not sure how accurate the dimensions were even with better quality instructions like the ones I've got. From my measurements of the H400 stand rod dimensions they were actually smaller than those on the diagrams and seemed very similar to the H200 ones. Either way I suspect the increased robustness may have sorted it, not sure what else could have. I guess not everything is necessarily black and white even with good quality and detailed instructions and information. I find sometimes with instructions some of the info there is good and useful but some of it sometimes isn't. The proportions here could vary depending on the quality of the instructions / info and suspecting what the good and not so good parts are could be quite a skill in itself and some of that would only come with experience.

Anyway that's more than enough bollocks, just thought I'd resolve this thread hopefully and perhaps may be of use to someone one day. Thank you again.
 

Mr_Runner

Well-known member
I've got an update here. Although the H400 seemed to have significantly improved the spinning hi-hat due to it being more robust I think it was still happening but not spinning as much as with the H200. More recently though I've been on with a track that requires a fair amount of open hi-hat work and this has been causing the hi-hat to spin even more and especially when needing to hit it harder / louder. Two things that seem to cause a hi-hat to spin more are open hi-hat stuff as well as the opening and closing of the hi-hat. My hi-hat spun so much and on an older track as well which I thought the H400 had mostly solved that the sound wasn't coming through as well which normally happens when the part of the hi-hat that is hit is beyond the 180 degrees of the hi-hat pad containing the sensor. Indeed after the second time of this happening the hi-hat had spun significantly. I think open hi-hat seems to cause the hi-hat to spin more and especially when needing to hit it harder / louder than opening and closing which is understandable I guess if doing equal amounts of each for comparison.

According to some instructions that I mentioned above it advises that the hi-hat rod needs to be 6-7mm in diameter I think. I've measured the diameter of the rods on both the H200 and H400 and there doesn't seem to be very much in it at all although I appreciate we're talking possibly quite small amounts and differences here which could be making more of a difference if you see what I mean. Even so both seemed at the 5.5mm mark with possibly the H400 being 5.5mm and the H200 being slightly less but still only perhaps 1/4 mm less or something? The H400 did improve the spinning hi-hat still in light of this and to look at it it is a more robust stand. There didn't seem as much from the rods on sight but perhaps the H400 being ever so slightly wider? I guess if technical info like this on these stands is available that would confirm and I may need something like that if I need to get an even more robust one perhaps with a 7mm diameter rod. I have been advised of a place to try regarding this stuff although I'm still not sure if even they will have that information at least to hand. I guess I could give it a go and see. I don't know if that will improve the problem any more than the H400? I guess it should though but who knows. For all I know the H400 maybe the best I can get regarding this fault. However I have been advised that the H600 maybe a possible solution and apparently by sight it has a wider rod than the H400. I have also been advised that the H800 maybe an option as I heard you can change the spring tension by adjusting that particular stand but if that has any impact on any of this is something I don't know.

There is some more stuff from the 27 KV instructions regarding some more hi-hat adjustment stuff but I'm not sure if this will help the situation from what I've read so far. Again though I could try and see.

One other thing I've noticed with my setup of the VH-10 hi-hat and my H400 stand is that to close the hi-hat enough to get quite a crisp and tight sound I seem to have to apply a fair amount of pressure on the hi-hat pedal in order to do this. I think possibly significantly more so than with an acoustic hi-hat setup to achieve a similar result. This also seems to help me get a quite crisp and tight open / close hi-hat sound which was the reason I was applying more pressure on the pedal in the first place and seemed better on the track I was working on. I realise that this seems to perhaps point towards the hi-hat sensor and that no stand even the H800 say will improve it? Again I could try some adjustment stuff to see how that goes.

What does anyone think apart from me being a bit of a jackass? I know I could try a few places and avenues which I will probably do but anything here would be really appreciated.
 
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Mr_Runner

Well-known member
I checked out some more stuff from the 27 KV instructions regarding some more hi-hat adjustment stuff mentioned in the post above. I set up the hi-hat again regarding the offset adjustment and also followed the more detailed instructions regarding the hi-hat adjustment with regards to the gap height between the formed part in the lower middle of the hi-hat and the centre tip of the sensor (as described in the manual). It recommends the gap is 3mm. I think I did it perhaps 4-5mm which I'm hoping should be ok. The manual here does state that this gap can be adjusted to a clearance that makes playing the hi-hat easier but setting too narrow or wide a gap can cause improper function and prevent the hi-hat from sounding as you intend. Apparently a 3mm gap provides the most natural feel. I'm not sure if I necessarily completely agree with some of this and although I had set a wider gap I don't think I was causing as many problems as this at least from this context. However I tested the hi-hat when needing it open / open + closing and it seemed a bit better but time will tell. Perhaps the hi-hat being closer to the sensor may have improved the spinning?

Another mistake I have possibly made is this which I wrote near the bottom of the above post;

One other thing I've noticed with my setup of the VH-10 hi-hat and my H400 stand is that to close the hi-hat enough to get quite a crisp and tight sound I seem to have to apply a fair amount of pressure on the hi-hat pedal in order to do this. I think possibly significantly more so than with an acoustic hi-hat setup to achieve a similar result. This also seems to help me get a quite crisp and tight open / close hi-hat sound which was the reason I was applying more pressure on the pedal in the first place and seemed better on the track I was working on. I realise that this seems to perhaps point towards the hi-hat sensor and that no stand even the H800 say will improve it? Again I could try some adjustment stuff to see how that goes.

I think by doing the above I may have possibly been causing more problems although it was understandable as I was just trying to get a crisper and tighter sound both closed hi-hat and open + closing. I also tested this stuff on an acoustic setup which includes the Mapex Tornado H200 stand. I found it similar to the electric setup in terms of the amount of pressure stuff on the pedal above. So maybe I have been applying too much pressure on the electric setup here. When looking at the offset adjustment meter setting this extra pressure may have been effecting that perhaps a bit too much and also possibly on the sensor itself as the extra pressure on the pedal would be compressing that more I think and also possibly effecting the gap width maybe even having the effect of narrowing it a little. Either way I think I'm just going to rest my foot on the hi-hat pedal instead of more pressure and as it was when looking at the offset adjustment meter setting being correct I think. I think I may have partly made this mistake when learning a track. Maybe when you're having trouble with a track you look for ways to help you and also possibly to make it better at least in your opinion. Here you may make mistakes as I possibly have or also learn things which aren't mistakes. Either way it could be part of a learning curve and experience. However again time will tell here with all this stuff but I feel it's enough at least for today and some further testing and experience.

One more thing in terms of the hi-hat spinning being at its worst in the open position while also being hit harder as outlined in my above post I may need to adjust my playing slightly. The track I'm on does require the hi-hat being stuck with increasing volume in the open position for a few bars or so. Maybe I need to adjust my playing a little by toning down the loudness and hitting a bit. Again time should tell.
 
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