Sound man knows best?

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
Very informative - thanks Bermuda and Dennis. Great strategy for the vocalist - the most important part of the sound to me. Definitely need to clean it up so the words are more readily understood.

In the old days I often had poor foldback and the vocs wouldn't be loud enough in my mix. I found that really difficult when it came to feel, cues and responsiveness.
 

mattsmith

Platinum Member
I couldn't play someone else's kit like that. But I wouldn't make such a big deal about it either. I would be well informed before hand and we wouldn't even try to get the gig. It isn't about being picky or anything. I'm not in a regular rock/pop/metal/tribute -band like that where it really wouldn't matter.

To me there's two choices, either try to make living with drumming and make a lot of compromises like Bermuda tries to explain, or make your living with something else and then do what ever you please and pick your gigs such that you can truly do whatever you like with them. Some really lucky drummers can drum as a job and then do the free stuff on the spare time, but the drumming for your living is always going to be compromising. There might be a bit of grey area somewhere between the two but I think that will only come with experience and long successful career.

You seem to be dealing with people who want to make a living out of music but aren't ready for the compromises. That's not where I'm coming from. You can try to argue that no one can really do their music freely, but I have seen it done (by my dad for 25-30 years of free jazz) but not for a living, yet they have been praised at least academically.

Hey JPW, this isn't an issue about trying to get your point accross with a guy like pbloxam. He hasn't been listening anyway. It is about sharing perspectives with the almost 2000 who have already checked out this thread, in demonstration of the fact that there really is an unfortunate /albeit small/segment of audio professionals who choose to accept a parallel reality that even includes being the owner of the establishment when the owner isn't there. And IMO it's making all the good guys in that field look bad. Moreover, almost everyone here has shared near identical stories. These are actual realities that are inescapable.

Again-and this bears repeating as often as possible. This guy joked about trashing the sound of bands who don't obey him. He can't get away from that, whether he's 7 or 70.

That's why I decided to continue responding to him. I also understand that Bermuda is suggesting I be careful how I pick my fights. I get that too. But I would think being passionate about this silly level of so called professional behavior would be one of them.

On a related note, I was up at 8:00 am /my time/ this morning because I had to get ready for an out of town thing. I saw pbloxam's I own the place when the the owner's not there statement and immediately made 2 USA phone calls to a couple of very high profile club owners in New Orleans and LA who were still open. I then directed them to this link and asked them to comment. One of them told me our guy be gone the moment he ever made that claim in regards to his establishment, while the other one just laughed and said It's just to stupid to answer.

Preps the cooks? The sound man preps the cooks???!!!!

Seriously, did anyone who read that the first time not fall on the floor laughing? Come on be honest.

Then unfortunately, when there's nothing left to this guy's perspective but wall corners, in textbook fashion he pulls the age card then tries to vicariously assume the role of the senior drummer here, when I'm certain that person can speak for himself. Honestly there must be a book all these guys read because its always the same.

Question-for everyone who continues to try that on forums-Where has it gotten you? It's only isolated you and unfairly tainted the good guys from your group by association, when a truly healthy forum parks the age thing at the door. That's forum culture, and that's the way it's always been, because it's the only way that levels the playing field. And although I'm aware that there are a couple of forums that will even go as far as to have a moderator run off the pesky kid for you, this fortunately has never been one of those places. Frankly who here wants it that other way? In fact in the 4 and a half years I've been here I don't think I ever saw this tactic used until about a year and a half ago.

Also note that pbloxam followed up by trying to turn this into a fictional issue about older guys, where the arrogantly naive younger ones were trying to put them out to pasture--a kind of awkward young guy rebellion. His little stunt has been clumsy at best, while he of course knew how disingenuous it was.

Fascinating.
 
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pbloxam

Senior Member
Hey JPW, this isn't an issue about trying to get your point accross with a guy like pbloxam. He hasn't been listening anyway. It is about sharing perspectives with the almost 2000 who have already checked out this thread, in demonstration of the fact that there really is an unfortunate /albeit small/segment of audio professionals who choose to accept a parallel reality that even includes being the owner of the establishment when the owner isn't there. And IMO it's making all the good guys in that field look bad. Moreover, almost everyone here has shared near identical stories. These are actual realities that are inescapable.

Again-and this bears repeating as often as possible. This guy joked about trashing the sound of bands who don't obey him. He can't get away from that, whether he's 7 or 70.

That's why I decided to continue responding to him. I also understand that Bermuda is suggesting I be careful how I pick my fights. I get that too. But I would think being passionate about this silly level of so called professional behavior would be one of them.

On a related note, I was up at 8:00 am /my time/ this morning because I had to get ready for an out of town thing. I saw pbloxam's I own the place when the the owner's not there statement and immediately made 2 USA phone calls to a couple of very high profile club owners in New Orleans and LA who were still open. I then directed them to this link and asked them to comment. One of them told me our guy be gone the moment he ever made that claim in regards to his establishment, while the other one just laughed and said It's just to stupid to answer.

Then unfortunately, when there's nothing left to this guy's perspective but wall corners, he pulls the age card because that's all he's got.

Question-for everyone who continues to try that on forums-Where has it gotten you? It's only isolated you and unfairly tainted the good guys from your group by association, when a truly healthy forum parks the age thing at the door. That's forum culture, and that's the way it's always been, because it's the only way that levels the playing field. And although I'm aware that there are a couple of forums that will even go as far as to have a moderator run off the pesky kid for you, this fortunately has never been one of those places. Frankly who here wants it that other way? In fact in the 4 and a half years I've been here I don't think I ever saw this tactic used until about a year and a half ago.

Also note that pbloxam followed up by trying to turn this into a fictional issue about older guys, where the arrogantly naive younger ones were trying to put them out to pasture--a kind of awkward young guy rebellion. His little stunt has been clumsy at best, while he of course knew how disingenuous it was.

Ok KIS, I really am out lol.

You are right!!! I give up!!! I just quit my job cuz I realize I am lost in time and have no business being here!!!

You win!!!
 

mattsmith

Platinum Member
You are right!!! I give up!!! I just quit my job cuz I realize I am lost in time and have no business being here!!!
Too bad this isn't sincere either.

Tell you what man, why don't you go down to tommycanuhearme's basement and watch some soccer? You can admire his Ludwigs while he looks for the rabbit ears and tin foil.

Have a good one every body. I'll take the week off to take into perspective the good life we all have for having the privelage to perform music and get paid for it.

Later.
 

bobdadruma

Platinum Member
I'm not a pro or a headliner. I have worked with many sound men over the years.
I have never argued with any of them. I have discussed things with them a few times. Just to understand what was going on.
I have played shows where the sound was great and shows where things didn't go as planned.
I have joked a few times about murdering the sound man when it didn't go well. Theses were just jokes. I knew that they did the best that they could.
Let's face it. There will always be things that can't be controlled during a live performance.
Feedback Issue, Monitor Issue, You name it, If it can happen, It will!

I just accept it as part of the deal and I move on.
Different sound men, using different gear, in different venues, will create different sound mixes.
It would be the same for me if I was in their shoes. I would get the best sound that I could in the time that I had.

There is one large venue that I play at frequently that has modern equipment and for some reason the sound never sounds great, no matter who is playing, or who is working the sound system. It is hard to hear on stage also. Last Friday I couldn't hear the keyboards or the congas well through the mix. I had to lip read the singer sometimes. I think that the place is haunted! Even the headliners complain about the venue.
The best that it ever gets is just OK. Never great
 
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pbloxam

Senior Member
Too bad this isn't sincere either.

Tell you what man, why don't you go down to tommycanuhearme's basement and watch some soccer? You can admire his Ludwigs while he looks for the rabbit ears and tin foil.

Have a good one every body. I'll take the week off to take into perspective the good life we all have for having the privelage to perform music and get paid for it.

Later.

I don't know Tommy but I figure you probably like to insult him as well..

I guess you didn't like something he said in general or maybe directed to you. don't know and don't care..

Keep cryin, you look marvelous!!!

Peace!!
 

cdrums21

Gold Member
I am 52 as well, playin' for 36 years. Hello fellow geezers and oldfarts. Ok, I get the argument of the sound guy knows how the audience will hear the drums and all of that and I agree he probably knows best in that regard as far as the mix, volume of each drum, etc. But, what I'm talking more about is the nuances of the drum sound and in particular, tuning or muffling in an effort to enhance what YOU the drummer deem as the valuable part of the drum sound. For example....

I was in a band back in the 80's and we played in a club with a house sound man. I assumed that everything was hunky dory (an old fart term by the way) until I was in the audience when a friend who was a drummer sat in on a tune. When I went out front, to my ear, the snare drum sounded boxy with more "crack" than "pop". I like a "poppy" snare with more of a "moving air" sound, if you know what I mean. I asked the sound guy if that's how the drums sounded when I played and he said "Yeah man, pretty much". I was a little bummed, but what could I do? So a few months later, a good friend of mine who was an awesome sound guy (he has since passed away) and very "drummer friendly" sat in for the house guy who couldn't be there. As I was getting a sound check, I could tell that the sound was different out front, especially the snare drum. It sounded bigger and more powerful. He asked me to remove some muffling and tighten the top head a tad. To my ear on stage, the drum opened up and "popped" more, like the way I like to hear it. Out front, I know it sounded great, I could just tell. I had one of the best nights playing I ever had that night. In that case, the sound guy did know best, but so did the drummer. Do you understand what I'm getting at? A soundguy may know the sound of the drums best as far as what the audiece hears per se, but he may not dial up the sound that YOU like or one that YOU feel fits the style of music best. That's the point I'm trying to make. So when a sound guy asks me to muffle up and take away all the nuances of what I feel need to be enhanced in my drum sound, I'm a little reluctant, but I always appease and go with the flow. "I'm a professional...I can rise above it" - Spinal Tap :eek:)
 

bobdadruma

Platinum Member
We have all been there cdrums21,
Did my snare really sound Like that?
My bass drum had no boom, Just thump!
That's not the sound that I like!
 

aydee

Platinum Member
.. Do you understand what I'm getting at? A soundguy may know the sound of the drums best as far as what the audiece hears per se, but he may not dial up the sound that YOU like or one that YOU feel fits the style of music best. That's the point I'm trying to make. )

I do, Clint. Thats exactly the point I was trying to make earlier.

Forget the' soundman doesn't understand my sound' for a second and consider what if there are 3 ways the kit sounds nice.

The sound guy might have and opinion which is different from yours. In your case your man thought it was nice and 'boxy'-which didn't work for you because you wanted nice & 'poppy'.

I'm a pretty lo-tech guy for someone who's been around studios all my life, but I know this much - subtle changes in mixes/levels/processing-- just a few minor slides of the fader, and the same band can sound like 3 different bands. Not good, not bad, different.

Nothing that a bit of helpful conversation and a little teamwork between two competent people cant handle at soundcheck.

...
 

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
Nothing that a bit of helpful conversation and a little teamwork between two competent people cant handle at soundcheck.
.
And that really underscores the whole thread. Get to know a bit about what makes a show work, & be as prepared & accomodating as possible. If it all goes tits up because of someone else's attitude, you've done your best.
 

bermuda

Drummerworld Pro Drummer - Administrator
Staff member
We have all been there cdrums21,
Did my snare really sound Like that?
My bass drum had no boom, Just thump!
That's not the sound that I like!

Sometimes boom doesn't work with whatever the bass guitar sounds like, and sometimes thump gets lost in there, too. The guy out front who hears things the way the audience does is the one who has to make the call. Couldn't he just ask the bass player to EQ his rig differently to get him out of the way of the kick? I suppose... and then we'll read about that on bassplayers.com or something.

I know this topic has become about who controls what, and the attitude that may accompany it. But there's a simple truth here: regardless of how we want our drums to sound, or how we think they should sound because we like what we hear from behind the kit, or because we assume as drummers we know our instrument better than someone else ... the sound guy out front knows what's going on with our drums better than we do from where we sit. Period. It's not experience talking, it's not age, it's not professionalism, there's no perspective or agenda... it's just a fact based on the physics of where two people stand, and the resulting acoustics. When the drummer finishes a gig and wants to know what his drums sounded like... does he ask the bass player? The singer? The stage tech or the monitor guy? God forbid he'd ask the sound man... but he will ask his buddies who were in the audience. IN... THE... AUDIENCE. But... isn't that where the sound man is?! Almost every time, yes. You have to accept that he knows how the kit sounds, and the drummer doesn't... unless he happens to be set-up in the audience. I've yet to see that.

Apart from the discussion of what the sound man actually does once he hears the sound, you must start from the reality that on stage, behind the kit, maybe with a low ceiling, maybe on a concrete floor, with the bass player's amp rumbling your kick's reso head even though you can't hear it... you are in the hands of the sound man. Period.

Does he care how your drums sound to you? He might, and he probably should, but he has other factors to deal with and may not be able to accommodate the sound the way the drummer perceives it. Would the sound man be any good if he just let the drums sound like they do out front, trusting that every drummer knows how to tune? Hard to say, because it doesn't matter if they've tuned their kit great, because (say it with me once again) the drummer doesn't know how his drums sound in the house when mic'd.

The drummer has a responsibility to provide good sounding gear, but the sound man has a responsibility to assist the sound if necessary, and that's usually the case in a live room. I'm not making this up, just reporting what I've observed for the last 35+ years I've been playing bars, clubs, theaters, and concert halls. Unless something changed since I played a small club 10 days ago, I stand by my observations. Has anything changed in the last 10 days? Because I will stand corrected and apologize profusely for everything I've said here!

Sheesh, this is obviously something that the more experienced players here already know, and that the less-experienced ones will just have to learn after they beat their heads against the wall for a few more years. It's just fascinating to read about drummers who don't want to budge, talking about how the sound men won't adapt to them!

Bermuda
 

JPW

Silver Member
the drummer doesn't know how his drums sound in the house when mic'd.

Why is that a fact though? It's not like we couldn't put someone else playing our kit and go listen to it by ourselves... (although it might not be always possible, but experience should help here too)

My point from the start of this thread has been that we _should_ know as detailed as possible how we want our kit to sound to the audience and have the ability to communicate that to the sound man. Then IF he is a good sound man like you assume they all are, then he will provide audience with that sound. But my point is that not all sound men are that good, and of course not all drummers know their sound that detailed and sound man and/or drummer might not even care. Other than that I of course agree with you. It's just that I don't trust that every possible sound man on the planet has better ears and love for my music and sound than I do.

But this discussion has gone circles for a while now so maybe I should also do something else for a change. =P
 

bobdadruma

Platinum Member
bermuda, I agree with you. If you reread my other posts in this thread I stated that it is just something that I have learned to live with. Just as you said. It is a fact!
I have learned from my experience also. The sound man is dealing with the whole band. Not just me and my kit.
The fact that I accept it as fact just as you do, doesn't mean that I always agree with it. Or I like the sound of my drums in the audience.

The fact that we know the difference is a good thing. I means that we know how we want our drums to sound.
I would feel incompetent if I didn't know the difference of how I sounded vs how I wanted to sound!
 
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bermuda

Drummerworld Pro Drummer - Administrator
Staff member
Why is that a fact though? It's not like we couldn't put someone else playing our kit and go listen to it by ourselves... (although it might not be always possible, but experience should help here too)

It's certainly possible to put someone else behind the kit, but do they play the way you do? How the drummer plays the kit greatly affects its sound, and unless you can be sure the other guy plays like you, you won't hear the same sound. And just like some drummers have a problem relying on the sound man when they're playing, how can they then put their faith in someone else to play like they do in order to assess the sound?

I've done it, but I know I'm not getting an accurate representation of my sound, and drummers wanting to make sure their sound comes across is a key point of this discussion. Can getting only an indication of how the kit sounds be helpful? I suppose it's better than nothing, but it's seldom accurate.

I said early on, there has to be an assumption that the sound guy is capable, just as everyone here arguing about their sound wants us to assume that their gear sounds great. Well, it may or may not, it really depends where you sit or stand. Oh... there I go again suggesting that drums sound different to people in different places in relation to the kit. But that truth is inescapable, no matter how much anyone insists that it's not, or thinks they can tune their drums to get around it.

Bermuda
 

last man to bat

Senior Member
I have had so many bad experiences with sound engineers over the years, it drives me crazy. Most have been at festivals where the sound guy is out of his depth. All the bands throughout the day sounding terrible and when I've approached the sound guy in respect to what i'm after for my band, I have mostly been met with rudeness from him. I'm sure that these guys know that they are in it way over their heads.

We played a festival where the headline band had their own sound guy, all the other bands were using the engineer that came with the PA. The bands sounded ok throughout the day but when the pro got on the desk, well the PA really came to life, the sound was suddenly amazing.

The thing is, most good sound guys get snapped up by the pro bands and the rest are left to mix all of us. And it is no laughing matter when we are up there in front of the audience and the PA is whistling and the vocals are distorted.

But on a positive, i recently played a gig and I knew my floor tom was a bit boomy. I spoke tho the engineer after soundcheck and said that I could always put a bit of moongel on it if it was causing problems... He shook his head and said that there would be no need for that. He recorded the gig straight through the PA and on listening back the next day the drum sound was spot on, no boomy toms, the kit sounded exactly as it does acoustically. Some guys know what they are doing :)
 

bobdadruma

Platinum Member
Lets look at it from another side. Last month I was opening at an event. I was watching the sound man check another drummers kit. The toms were out of control. I could hear that the reso's were so loose that they were booming. I approached the other drummer whom I have known for two years now and I suggested that he tension his reso's a bit more.
He told me to F Off! I usually don't say anything, But I was in a mood to be useful!
I will never try to help someone that doesn't ask for it again! EVER!
 
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pbloxam

Senior Member
Sometimes boom doesn't work with whatever the bass guitar sounds like, and sometimes thump gets lost in there, too. The guy out front who hears things the way the audience does is the one who has to make the call. Couldn't he just ask the bass player to EQ his rig differently to get him out of the way of the kick? I suppose... and then we'll read about that on bassplayers.com or something.

I know this topic has become about who controls what, and the attitude that may accompany it. But there's a simple truth here: regardless of how we want our drums to sound, or how we think they should sound because we like what we hear from behind the kit, or because we assume as drummers we know our instrument better than someone else ... the sound guy out front knows what's going on with our drums better than we do from where we sit. Period. It's not experience talking, it's not age, it's not professionalism, there's no perspective or agenda... it's just a fact based on the physics of where two people stand, and the resulting acoustics. When the drummer finishes a gig and wants to know what his drums sounded like... does he ask the bass player? The singer? The stage tech or the monitor guy? God forbid he'd ask the sound man... but he will ask his buddies who were in the audience. IN... THE... AUDIENCE. But... isn't that where the sound man is?! Almost every time, yes. You have to accept that he knows how the kit sounds, and the drummer doesn't... unless he happens to be set-up in the audience. I've yet to see that.

Apart from the discussion of what the sound man actually does once he hears the sound, you must start from the reality that on stage, behind the kit, maybe with a low ceiling, maybe on a concrete floor, with the bass player's amp rumbling your kick's reso head even though you can't hear it... you are in the hands of the sound man. Period.

Does he care how your drums sound to you? He might, and he probably should, but he has other factors to deal with and may not be able to accommodate the sound the way the drummer perceives it. Would the sound man be any good if he just let the drums sound like they do out front, trusting that every drummer knows how to tune? Hard to say, because it doesn't matter if they've tuned their kit great, because (say it with me once again) the drummer doesn't know how his drums sound in the house when mic'd.

The drummer has a responsibility to provide good sounding gear, but the sound man has a responsibility to assist the sound if necessary, and that's usually the case in a live room. I'm not making this up, just reporting what I've observed for the last 35+ years I've been playing bars, clubs, theaters, and concert halls. Unless something changed since I played a small club 10 days ago, I stand by my observations. Has anything changed in the last 10 days? Because I will stand corrected and apologize profusely for everything I've said here!

Sheesh, this is obviously something that the more experienced players here already know, and that the less-experienced ones will just have to learn after they beat their heads against the wall for a few more years. It's just fascinating to read about drummers who don't want to budge, talking about how the sound men won't adapt to them!

Bermuda

I have to thank Bermuda for his respect of sound engineers and live reinforcement....

I may come across sounding jaded and old but I have learned a few things since the late 70's early 80's...

Each venue is different from the room/acoustics to the what the building is made of, roof composition etc...

Not every club is a sonically balanced room... We aren't talking about Wolf Trap or some acoustically designed venue...

Mot clubs are in commercial buildings and have joist ceilings, exposed ducts, etc....

Some of the clubs I have had the honor to play in and mix in have a balanced sound, ie usually a spectrum analyzer daisy chained into the system to get it as balanced to output as possible from the mains due to room restrictions....(key issue)

Some rooms aren't balanced...just can't be due to building material.. They are problems...

Bleeding from the monitors to the mains is another issue... A debate in itself for in ear monitors...

During the time my friend Shannon was working with Mick Fleetwood, I believe they were running around 110 on the mains, around 80 to 90 on the monitors....Thats thousands....
Thats a whole lot of sound to contain....

Think of the savings running in ears instead of the amps and cabinets required on stage....

Big savings...

I meet Assante the percussionist during that time ( he lived in my neighborhood!!! I didn't even know who he was!!! He was the percussionist for Fleetwood on that particular tour!!) and I later worked with him and Mike Robishaw, Blues harp player on Mikes solo release...

At that time, a cassette release was made but they are now available on cd...

Contact MTR Blues on myspace... if you like the blues...

Assante went on to work with Paul Simon...

Anyhow, back to what I was babbling about,

With todays dsp anti feedback systems, you can literally be worry free of feedback, etc...

However, some of these systems induce a phasing type of sound due to constantly trying to adjust to the frequencies inputted...

Once a club is set up properly, sound checks usually take only a few minutes... Other than setting trim on the channels, most gates, and compression, reverb require only minute adjustments...many are using onboard gear with presets so it's a button away..

A good sound man knows the limits of the system he is operating and isn't going to go beyond what its capable of doing...

In one club, the tuning of your drums cold be perfect, no dampening, ziltch...

But those same drums in venue with open ceiling, ducts could create feedback, boominess, etc...

Some of the first recordings I did n the late 70's , our guitarist had an echoplex, there were no stomp boxes or rack mount effects....You made due with what you had...

The main reason why engineers put massive amounts of tape or pillows or remove bottom head of drums, etc...to control things they didn't have gear to control it with...

Today, its a patch away in outboard or onboard gear... You don't need gaffers tape, duct, tape, or anything really.. Gates are wonderful, eq moderately from what I understand....

Again, gain in eq can introduce phasing issues in sound...

Compression and reverb are pretty much standard in any club today... The problem lies in what each club has...

Do they have enough, mics, compressors, gates, effects to cover all instruments without putting a blanket patch on channels...

The same gate settings on a bass drum doesn't apply to a snare or toms if they are needed ... Does the venue have enough to cover your entire band???

I wish it were simple but you are really limited to each venue and the knowledge of the soundman and what he has to work with...

Cords go, amps die, drivers blow, its a never ending dance to make sure all works properly....

What do yo do??? Dig in, find a replacement and try to keep it going...

Peace!!
 

mattsmith

Platinum Member
I have had so many bad experiences with sound engineers over the years, it drives me crazy. Most have been at festivals where the sound guy is out of his depth. All the bands throughout the day sounding terrible and when I've approached the sound guy in respect to what i'm after for my band, I have mostly been met with rudeness from him. I'm sure that these guys know that they are in it way over their heads.

We played a festival where the headline band had their own sound guy, all the other bands were using the engineer that came with the PA. The bands sounded ok throughout the day but when the pro got on the desk, well the PA really came to life, the sound was suddenly amazing.

The thing is, most good sound guys get snapped up by the pro bands and the rest are left to mix all of us. And it is no laughing matter when we are up there in front of the audience and the PA is whistling and the vocals are distorted.

But on a positive, i recently played a gig and I knew my floor tom was a bit boomy. I spoke tho the engineer after soundcheck and said that I could always put a bit of moongel on it if it was causing problems... He shook his head and said that there would be no need for that. He recorded the gig straight through the PA and on listening back the next day the drum sound was spot on, no boomy toms, the kit sounded exactly as it does acoustically. Some guys know what they are doing :)
I was going to break off from this, but I wanted to comment on how I thought this was the post of the thread, and how it explains every pertinent issue, good and bad.

I think it is absolutely without a shadow of a doubt important to work together and I said as much on just about every post I made on this thread. And for anyone who has worked with me for more than 10 minutes, you know this is how it always plays out. But if you're dealing with a Shut up guy, then that's going to make it tough, and unfortunately there are a lot of them out there now sitting behind those boards, including those who will brag in public about how they will sabotage your sound if you look at them funny. In fact one of them even showed up here. IMO these kinds of people need to go because they continue to place a stain on the 90% of good to great sound men who get it done every day, while guys like me are happy for it.

Nor is this an issue about how young drummers don't want to budge. We /as well as anyone of any age/ just do not want to be around the kind of guy who would trash your sound on purpose while he simultaneously assumes the role of the manager who can even prep the cooks when the owner's not there. Nothing was missed here regarding those EXACT perspectives. In fact, something was very perplexing here and I will eventually get to the bottom of it. Usually when there's a lot of interesting reasoning followed by conveniently timed posting, something is almost always up. And after taking note of one of the last 10 visitors of one of the guys in question, I'm starting to get a clearer picture.

Past all the bait and switch, name dropping, obfuscation, and hiding behind others that went on the side of the disingenuous part of the discussion, I think the air was sufficiently cleared. There obviously has been some dissatisfaction and I am sorry for any part I had in all that.

I also appreciate the numerous messages that came from people OF ALL AGES, including several from this thread. Yeah, I agree with you. Sometimes you just don't want to get into a shouting match, while that continues to be a lesson I try to work on every day.
 
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pbloxam

Senior Member
"Sheesh, this is obviously something that the more experienced players here already know, and that the less-experienced ones will just have to learn after they beat their heads against the wall for a few more years. It's just fascinating to read about drummers who don't want to budge, talking about how the sound men won't adapt to them!"

Excerpt from Bermuda...

My mentioning of names was to hopefully help establish some sort of resume...

Doesn't matter at this point...

Mike R. has run sound longer than I have....Give him grief/disrespect and you get the same back...

He's a little more aggressive than I...I don't look for fights, but Mike has no problem with punching peoples time clock or cursing the crap out of them or throwing them out....

If you come in and disrespect, don't be surprised at how you are treated...

Be professional, you get the same in turn....

I'm done...
 

last man to bat

Senior Member
Be professional, you get the same in turn....
good bit of advice, problem is, someone messing with your sound because he feels a bit undermined is not a very professional approach.

I went to see a local band a while back and the drums could not be heard at all. I was a bit miffed, I had paid money to the venue and got a band who sounded bad, not through their fault, the drummer was working hard. I went to the sound guy and mentioned to him that I couldn't hear the drums and he shrugged his shoulders at me. Now he was either incompetent as a sound engineer or he was giving the band a bad sound on purpose because his ego was dented. Either way, I and all the other paying audience, were the ones who had to suffer a bad sound. What I should have done in hindsight was demand a refund!

As far as what a drum kit sounds like miced up... forget about it. Figure yourself lucky if the drum kit can be heard at all. There are so many more concerns that I have when playing live. But the only person I would gaffer my drums for would be Eno.

I could go on forever with the bad experiences I have had (unfortunately there have been so many that I am bitter and twisted about the whole subject), I wish they were as simple as "my snare sounded a bit light on the bottom end".... Maybe I expect too much.

I have had sound guys that ask me what I want, where I would like the mics placed, do I want to keep that ring that my snare drum has, that sort of thing. These are the guys that get good results, they are not too insecure about their abilities to give the band some options. They inspire me with confidence, if they tell me my kick is sounding woolly I will happily try their suggestions. Unfortunately the ones who are rude seem to be the ones who know least about their craft.

We are all at the mercy of the sound engineer, your band could have spent years developing their songs, nuances, intricate parts etc. but if the sound guy sucks, so does the band. And that sad truth is a reality for all too many bands.
 
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