Single Stroke Roll

iwearnohats

Silver Member
But then again, I'm still angry at the people who first taught me to drive using my right foot on the brake, instead of left-foot braking. Idiots. Same dumb ones who said 10-2.
Well, this is a little bit extreme :p But then, I'm guessing you've never driven anything but an automatic vehicle? Left foot braking isn't always appropriate when you're driving a manual as you might need to change down while braking at times. So in that case, you learn to heel-toe! In fact, the worst thing is learning to left-foot brake when you're so used to stomping on a clutch. It is... exciting for surprisingly brief moments :p

Also, there isn't actually anything wrong with 10-2 (I'm assuming you're talking about the steering wheel). Take it from somebody who spent years doing 700-1000km per week, and now also has a truck license.
 
T

TwoCables

Guest
Well, left-foot braking is a bad thing because there's a risk of accidentally braking while you're still accelerating, and accelerating while you're still holding down the brake pedal.

Not only that, but I need my left foot to help me keep time while I'm driving!
 

iwearnohats

Silver Member
Actually, generally speaking there is no reason to use the left foot for braking in day to day driving unless you are specifically applying methods to adjust the balance of the car while cornering. And believe me, unless you're a racing driver you probably don't know how to do this correctly, so please don't do it or you might just crash and die :p

Also, I do get bored of seeing people mistaking the brake pedal for a foot rest. It's not :).
 

JasperGTR

Senior Member
lol! (sorry for off-topic analogy)

Yes, I left-foot brake (horribly by comparison, again I blame people who thought they knew how to drive). Muscle memory puts my right foot on the brake pedal, so to brake with my left foot, it is a pretty large challenge (as it pertains to this post). Years ago, my first days using heel-toe for downshifting was a challenge, as it isn't something that is taught to street drivers in the US (not sure why - it makes cars last longer, and keeps the car in balance better).

While I don't understand who thinks you'd be on the brake while accelerating is likely (do people with manual clutch pedals constantly crash because they depress the clutch pedals? - I don't), if you only have two pedals, two feet, makes sense, no?

If you learn the proper way, I don't see the issue (my original point, as it relates to drumming).

If you don't left-foot brake, there are times when the car's weight distribution goes to high-center (instead of front or rear). This is not desirable.

I don't see why driving an automatic has anything to do with it - the clutch pedal is only used when changing gears (less than a second each shift). I'm on the brakes a LOT more than the clutch pedal. If you can brake with BOTH feet - this is ideal, and won't have a mental limitation stopping you.

*edit: Of course 90% of this relates to race driving, but why not employ the same high-level of control everyday, all of the time? Just because you're going slower, doesn't mean you should be less effective... But I didn't realize how little I knew about driving, until I went to racing school. A couple decades later, I can't believe what people are saying these days.

Again - as this pertains to drumming:
If you're out just having fun - technique really doesn't matter (practice methods, etc...).
If you're trying to push your limits, and finding new ones - understanding how things work may help a LOT.
 
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8Mile

Platinum Member
Left foot braking is ALWAYS wrong.

Besides, most cars now have a nice little rest for your left foot that makes for a great way to practice developing your left foot patterns. After 30 years of doing that, I can play everything with my left foot on a bass drum that I can with my left!
 

JasperGTR

Senior Member
Left foot braking is ALWAYS wrong.

Besides, most cars now have a nice little rest for your left foot that makes for a great way to practice developing your left foot patterns. After 30 years of doing that, I can play everything with my left foot on a bass drum that I can with my left!
Then perhaps 90% (most likely more) of race car drivers (and most of my mentors) are wrong?

I'll contemplate that while I pass other cars on track, and maintain full control of my car on the street. (For reference, anyone come off throttle going into a corner at speed before applying the brakes? Let's around 150-180mph?) Before you say,"That's a bit extreme and not necessary for average driver." You're right. It is... So is doing a single stroke roll (at 200-250bpms+) for an average drummer. BUT - everything you learn practicing that single stroke roll may have a positive impact on other slower drumming techniques, just as high performance driving can ALL be used during the daily drive - only difference is the speed (on both accounts). Control is key.

Back to drumming, though, I'm not sure you meant left foot and left hand, or left foot and right foot...

There were many discussions about whether the non-dominant hand should be worked on to become equal to the dominant hand. Different philosophies here. In the end, nothing is wrong, just more suitable than others for certain people.
 

BacteriumFendYoke

Platinum Member
As an habitual driver of a manual car (and I've never driven an automatic), I don't left foot brake. On a race circuit, maybe I would - when the subtlety isn't required and you should either be full throttle or fully braked but on the road, I use my clutch to control the level of engine braking I have available quite regularly. It means I'm much more in control of the speed of the car and requires me to use my brake pedal a lot less.

Some would say that's bad form. It probably isn't necessarily the most efficient way of doing things but when it comes to driving in adverse weather, having that practice makes a huge amount of difference. I'm happy to drive in snow and severe storms and actually have control of the speed of my car - especially in snow where use of the brake pedal is not necessarily appropriate. Most drivers in the UK are absolutely useless in the snow.

What I cannot stand is the attitude of a lot of people that drive to use their accelerator and brakes as 'stop-and-go' pedals. That's just not how it works - especially in manuals, which the majority of cars in the UK are.

I don't left-foot brake because usually when I'm slowing down I'm changing gear at the same time to change my rate of engine braking in conjunction with conventional brakes.

EDIT: Just for laughs I like to change up and down gears without using my clutch. That's much more entertaining.

EDIT EDIT: I'm not God's gift to driving. I just enjoy it and experiment.
 

JasperGTR

Senior Member
As an habitual driver of a manual car (and I've never driven an automatic), I don't left foot brake. On a race circuit, maybe I would - when the subtlety isn't required and you should either be full throttle or fully braked but on the road, I use my clutch to control the level of engine braking I have available quite regularly. It means I'm much more in control of the speed of the car and requires me to use my brake pedal a lot less.

Some would say that's bad form. It probably isn't necessarily the most efficient way of doing things but when it comes to driving in adverse weather, having that practice makes a huge amount of difference. I'm happy to drive in snow and severe storms and actually have control of the speed of my car - especially in snow where use of the brake pedal is not necessarily appropriate. Most drivers in the UK are absolutely useless in the snow.

What I cannot stand is the attitude of a lot of people that drive to use their accelerator and brakes as 'stop-and-go' pedals. That's just not how it works - especially in manuals, which the majority of cars in the UK are.

I don't left-foot brake because usually when I'm slowing down I'm changing gear at the same time to change my rate of engine braking in conjunction with conventional brakes.

EDIT: Just for laughs I like to change up and down gears without using my clutch. That's much more entertaining.

EDIT EDIT: I'm not God's gift to driving. I just enjoy it and experiment.
I think you got my analogy. There are tools in the toolbox. The size of everyone's tool box is different, and contains different tools. I try to put as many tools in the tool box as I can. The single stroke roll (and all the practice that goes with it) can only add to the overall kit.

On another note - if you slip the clutch (slow application) or use it for more than just shifting up or down, you might be wearing your clutches a little faster. I'd rather change brake pads, than transmission components. But - you are absolutely correct about the 'stop and go' thing, too many people think this way. Definitely a lot more to actual driving than that. But I guess we are in the minority who care about the drive. The requirements for getting a license in the US are a joke, I think you only have to stay off your iPhone for 15secs (not that people actually stop that while driving...).

Changing gears without the clutch is quite a lot of fun. Liberating. When you can get to the point where you can blip the throttle to the right RPM, and slide the gear lever just right - ... man, that's cool stuff. Just watch those synchros... lol! I learned that is quite useful when trying to trail brake into a corner (applying brakes while still on accelerator), but needing to downshift. Only one way to do it (unless you have three feet, sequential transmission, or dual clutch). It is about moving the weight to the optimum side/corner for most efficient control (not necessarily traction).
 

BacteriumFendYoke

Platinum Member
I'm in the UK where the driving test is actually quite difficult. It's been made harder since I passed eight years ago or so and I'm sure my style of driving would have a few odd looks from instructors now. Whilst I drive efficiently, there's an emphasis on driving very efficiently now and I'm sure one or two instructors would try to change my habits; although I know just about enough. I just don't 'enjoy' driving at maximum efficiency and would rather have a little more torque...

Anyhow, we digress. Tools in the toolbox, absolutely.

You're right about clutch wear (and if Andy was reading this, I'm sure he'd chime in) but using only the brakes to slow down has never felt right. Also, in slow-moving traffic there's no point in constantly accelerating and then braking - it's just a waste of time and fuel. I'd rather sit on the clutch gently and use my handbrake and slip into neutral if I need to remain stationary.

What annoys me the most is that when I'm a passenger with some people I sense a lack of mechanical sympathy and understanding of what each component is actually doing. I call it 'rule-book' driving and by trying to follow a set pattern of strict rules, often you aren't actually applying the most appropriate style in a situation.

Like drumming, the more tools you have in the toolkit, the more you'll be able to adapt to different situations.

Might have some fun driving to work tomorrow practicing my clutch-less changes. Haven't done that in a while. Lots of changes on the way to work...
 

8Mile

Platinum Member
Then perhaps 90% (most likely more) of race car drivers (and most of my mentors) are wrong?
Is that what we're talking about? Tracking?

Driving a race car on a track is an entirely different thing. I thought we were talking about the habit of using the left foot to brake on a car equipped with an automatic transmission on public roads. A lazy (wo)man's way to brake, a bad habit that can lead to premature brake wear.

But in racing, sure, especially in rally. It can be used to control understeer and aid in oversteer to tuck around turns.
 

8Mile

Platinum Member
Jasper, I just realized I never read your long post about driving a race car, heel-toe, etc. You were indeed talking about race car driving! So my comment looked like it was a direct response to yours, but it wasn't. I hadn't even seen it! I just blasted off something in response to something farther up the thread. That's how I do things.

As a fellow race car driver, I see I caused some confusion. My bad.

Yes, I meant left foot and right foot. Another careless mistake on my part.

Hey, I'm at work trying to type all this while helping people solve their problems. What the f*** do you people want. I never said I paid attention.

A mess,
8Mile
 

JasperGTR

Senior Member
Jasper, I just realized I never read your long post about driving a race car, heel-toe, etc. You were indeed talking about race car driving! So my comment looked like it was a direct response to yours, but it wasn't. I hadn't even seen it! I just blasted off something in response to something farther up the thread. That's how I do things.

As a fellow race car driver, I see I caused some confusion. My bad.

Yes, I meant left foot and right foot. Another careless mistake on my part.

Hey, I'm at work trying to type all this while helping people solve their problems. What the f*** do you people want. I never said I paid attention.

A mess,
8Mile
Haha! No worries.

I am an advocate of practicing track-level control, for the everyday drive...

As extreme as my analogy was, doing a single stroke roll is quite a good analogy of extremes...

Some may think that drumming is just banging on some plastic and wood (and there are those who think driving is just an annoying boring method of transportation).

I see a single stroke roll as a pretty intense technique that the average drummer may not try often, because it may be unnecessarily extreme (as I do with the ability to drive 150mph+).
 

con struct

Platinum Member
Single stroke "rolls" in my experience are really for an effect or fill idea. Where one would need an actual "roll" in terms of written music or a snare drummer rolling when revealing with winner of a contest or something, a double-stroke open roll or a press roll usually sounds better and is less stressful on your body. Nothing wrong with doing them or preferring to use them but I find it's kind of like racing with ankle weights on. Why waste so much energy to so something you could do with less effort? If you are using singles to do a crescendo roll ala Tony Williams in a fill or using them in certain situations where you need more power, that's what I think they are for.
It's difficult to make out exactly what it is you're going after here.
 

Ian Ballard

Silver Member
It's difficult to make out exactly what it is you're going after here.
Never mind. I deleted the comment. People were going in all kinds of directions talking about driving cars and stuff... I thought I would just interject my personal opinion of "single-stroke rolls" but I digress.
 

JasperGTR

Senior Member
Never mind. I deleted the comment. People were going in all kinds of directions talking about driving cars and stuff... I thought I would just interject my personal opinion of "single-stroke rolls" but I digress.
My apologies. That was my ill-formed analogy.

I thought your point was valid - when trying make a roll sound, with half the effort (double strokes vs single). I've always had trouble doing double stroke rolls on the toms with the intensity (attack) of my singles. So I just started playing singles faster to compensate for it.
 

Ian Ballard

Silver Member
My apologies. That was my ill-formed analogy.

I thought your point was valid - when trying make a roll sound, with half the effort (double strokes vs single). I've always had trouble doing double stroke rolls on the toms with the intensity (attack) of my singles. So I just started playing singles faster to compensate for it.
Very true! Another valid reason for single-stroke rolls but as I said, those types of things are more for fills, rather than a written roll for a piece of music or for some kind of event where a drummer rolls before something "happens". You don't see a lot of drummers playing double-strokes on toms, except when Weckl used Recording Customs, which have a lot of attack, short sustain and a dark quality, plus the guy's technique is crazy good.
 

iwearnohats

Silver Member
I believe the application of single strokes vs double strokes (and combinations thereof) can actually be quite accurately summarised into a few simple points:

1. Which hand needs to be where for the next stroke

2. The 'sound' of the strokes (doubles will always sound different to singles).

3. The ease of manipulating dynamic variations.


A very simple and straightforward demonstration would be to play accented triplets, with accents played FF, and then the non-accented notes played PP. Try it these two ways:

R l r L r l R l r L r l

Or
R l l R l l R l l R l l / L r r L r r L r r L r r

You tell me which way flows better, is more relaxed, and sounds better :).

And of course, the application of more complex linear patterns over the entire set. For this next example, the left hand would stay on the snare, and the right hand could move freely and easily around the entire set:

R l l R l R l R l l R l R l l R

Or with a double accented Paradiddle-diddle played with the doubles on the snare, and the accented hits played on toms, you increase the amount of time each hand has to change between each drum for the last pairs of hits. Plus, again you get the dynamic variation that comes with double strokes. Gavin Harrison loves this pattern mixed with double kicks.

R L r r l l R L r r l l

Or, with kick:

B B R L r r l l B B R L r r l l


Err, I hope this helps clarify things? A fantastic book for learning all these compound linear patterns is Sticking Patterns by Gary Chaffee. Might be a little bit pricey but it was Pete Drummond who recommended it to me and I *highly* recommend that everyone gets it at some point! :)
 
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