Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

MaryO

Platinum Member
Re: Shooting in Newtown, Conneticut Elementary School

I heard a statistic that this is the 41st school shooting since Columbine. 41 and counting. I nearly fell over when I heard that. If someone wants to kill, the instrument of death can be many different things. I don't know how any law can prevent someone who wants to kill from doing so. How do we eliminate this desire to kill?

What changed in society since I was a kid? This just didn't happen when I was youngster. My wife thinks it psycotropic drugs that are prescribed for kids. I don't know so I won't comment. Seeing the pics of those kids, and indeed just thinking about it...their poor families especially..the tears just flow out. :(

I just don't know what can be done. Games for kids have unspeakable violence. Perhaps they should make video games where if you kill someone, unspeakable bad things happen to the killers. They are reinforcing the wrong message. That's just one little thing out of hundreds of factors that result in this.
There are many factors, not the least of which is lack of facilities for mentally ill and disturbed children. This was something I fought daily when I was a School Resource Officer. I saw children who were mentally disturbed and a danger to others, some of them as young as 7 years old, but when I would try to have them removed from the school or find them help, it was almost non-existent. Our society doesn't want to believe that young children can have criminal intent or be dangerous and so we bury our head in the sand until they are older and they refuse help or it's just too late and they turn our like the shooter here. Until we improve these types of services we are not going to move forward.
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
This does not seem like the same country I knew growing up. Mary, what you say is revealing. What I want to know is why do kids of 7 years old have criminal intent in the first place? It never used to be like that. We had bullys, but these kids aren't bullys. And bullys didn't shoot anybody. There are so many different reasons for the young killing the young, it hard to do just one thing to stop it. I can't help thinking that these killings are symptoms of a society that has lost it's direction. It's a sick society when you have kids killing people. The media has to change. Priorities have to change. Greed has to be criminalized. Human-ness has to be restored in an official capacity. Yea that's not happening anytime soon.
 

Manningluck

Senior Member
Upping gun control won't do anything. Heroin is illegal across the board but I could get some tomorrow if I wanted. A determined and motivated person will get their hands on whatever it is they want and need.This would be the exact case w/banning guns. Plus, to every 1 bad story involving guns there are 2-3 that have positive outcomes. You just never hear about those.

I think the focus needs to be on how we handle the mentally challenged and school security.
 

dmacc_2

Well-known member
Re: Shooting in Newtown, Conneticut Elementary School

There are many factors, not the least of which is lack of facilities for mentally ill and disturbed children. This was something I fought daily when I was a School Resource Officer. I saw children who were mentally disturbed and a danger to others, some of them as young as 7 years old, but when I would try to have them removed from the school or find them help, it was almost non-existent. Our society doesn't want to believe that young children can have criminal intent or be dangerous and so we bury our head in the sand until they are older and they refuse help or it's just too late and they turn our like the shooter here. Until we improve these types of services we are not going to move forward.
Indeed. My wife, as an elementary teacher for the last 17+ years has encountered and endured much more than anyone should. There's no support at any end until it's too late. There are 3 other teachers in her family with same stories - some worse than the next.
 

bobdadruma

Platinum Member
There is only the illusion of security in most schools in the US.
There is rarely any money to fund it so the security system winds up consisting a few low resolution cameras that may or may not work with no one watching them.
There may be a guard at a school who isn't armed.
Schools are easy targets for sick minds plus they know that their act will get big media coverage. That is what they want.

I agree that someone who is set on murder will find whatever hardware that they need to perform their deranged act.
People in third world countries always seem to have no problem getting the weapons that they need.
 

Deathmetalconga

Platinum Member
Unfortunately, teachers are increasingly called upon to protect their schools with their lives. Among other things society should do: schools should have a secured defensive firearm available to properly trained administrators and teachers.

If some maniac coward gunman does enter the school, at least school staff will have a chance to defend the school. This won't completely solve the problem but if it stops a coward gunman in his tracks, then it will have worked.
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
Unfortunately, teachers are increasingly called upon to protect their schools with their lives. Among other things society should do: schools should have a secured defensive firearm available to properly trained administrators and teachers.

If some maniac coward gunman does enter the school, at least school staff will have a chance to defend the school. This won't completely solve the problem but if it stops a coward gunman in his tracks, then it will have worked.
You know Martin I was going to post a similar response. Except I think the teachers, and indeed any adult working there, should have a defensive weapon, possibly something non lethal that can incapacitate a person. I mean it's reached that point. So OK bringing real guns in school would be a hot topic, but how about something as effective, but not deadly?

Like a taser or something along those lines. I see nothing wrong with that, only because what we have now, meaning nothing, isn't working.

I can't help wondering if everyone was armed for real, what would that do to todays society? Would it make more shootings or less shootings? I might be less inclined to shoot if everyone else was armed. It could go the other way too. I wonder how it would actually play out.
 

KnuckleBuster

Senior Member
Re: Shooting in Newtown, Conneticut Elementary School

There are many factors, not the least of which is lack of facilities for mentally ill and disturbed children. This was something I fought daily when I was a School Resource Officer. I saw children who were mentally disturbed and a danger to others, some of them as young as 7 years old, but when I would try to have them removed from the school or find them help, it was almost non-existent. Our society doesn't want to believe that young children can have criminal intent or be dangerous and so we bury our head in the sand until they are older and they refuse help or it's just too late and they turn our like the shooter here. Until we improve these types of services we are not going to move forward.
The shootings in Newtown are a tragedy....my wife and I both could not hold back our tears seeing the coverage of this, our hearts go out to the children and adults who were murdered so senselessly as well as the familys, the teachers, the first responders....all who's lives will never be the same.

I think Mary O hits the topic we as a nation should be talking about.
 
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larryz

Platinum Member
I marched in Washington DC in 2000 after Columbine incident and helped organize my city's trip to the march. Million Mom March. Here we are 12 years later...

I am curious. Can the Aussie and Brit drummers here chime in as to average number on gun-related deaths in their country per year?
 

MaryO

Platinum Member
Unfortunately, teachers are increasingly called upon to protect their schools with their lives. Among other things society should do: schools should have a secured defensive firearm available to properly trained administrators and teachers.

If some maniac coward gunman does enter the school, at least school staff will have a chance to defend the school. This won't completely solve the problem but if it stops a coward gunman in his tracks, then it will have worked.
And if they accidently shoot an unarmed civilian in the building or worse, a child, it doesn't work. Arming school personnel is NOT the answer. Putting things such as School Resource Officers full time in our school is a step in the right direction. I know, I was one for 4 years in a primary and elementary school. I was there every day, armed, with the children. It's a great program for many reasons. I was specifically trained in how to react to an intruder, the PROPER use of firearms and building search techniques and many other things. We also ran intruder drills and lock down drills so that school personnel and students would be somewhat prepared (as prepared as you can be in these situations).

It also teaches children, especially the young ones to trust and befriend officers. Something that is so often overlooked these days.

The other major point against arming teachers and school administration for me is this...when an incident happens, especially again in the younger schools, we need those teachers with their students who know and trust them. Those teachers already have their hands more than full keeping students calm and orderly and getting them to safety as quickly as possible. That is more important than having them out running down the halls. The children need the calming effect of a teacher they know and who knows them. Again, I know how important this is...I've seen it firsthand.

There are so many other factors as well....accidental shootings of innocent people, where do you keep guns when at school so the children don't have access, etc.

In the end, we all have to accept that there are NO perfect solutions to this problem. If an intruder wants in...he will get in. The best we can hope for is to keep casualties to a minimum. I always told my teachers that it was my job as the SRO to draw him away from students and focus on me if possible while help arrives. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. Either way, what we need to avoid is any type of rush to a decision and any type of vigilante attitude about arming all with guns.

It's a difficult and complex problem, I agree, but there are things that we can do to help. I hope solutions are studied that cover all angles, protection of the school and our students, mental health issues and more.
 

Bad Tempered Clavier

Silver Member
I am curious. Can the [. . .] Brit drummers here chime in as to average number on gun-related deaths in their country per year?
According to Gun Control Network, there were 58 firearms related homicides in England and Wales (population approx 56 million) in the year 2010/11 and 2 in Scotland (population approx 5 million) for the same period.

In the first 6 months of 2012 there were 42 recorded shooting deaths in the UK - 57% of which were with known or presumed legal firearms and 55% were apparently self-inflicted. It seems that since 1999/2000 the majority (about 430 in England & Wales and 11 in Scotland) of recorded firearm homicides have been with what are simply classified as "Handguns". Since 1997 private ownership of all cartridge ammunition "handguns" (i.e. not air pistols) regardless of calibre has been outlawed in England, Wales, and Scotland. I'm not sure about Northern Ireland.

FYI The Gun Control Network was founded in the wake of a shooting in March 1996 that took place at a school in Dunblane (Scotland) when a 43 year old male shot and killed 18 people (including himself) as well as wounding 15 others. The weapons used - two 9mm pistols and two .357 Magnum pistols - were (at that time) legally owned.
 

larryz

Platinum Member
According to Gun Control Network, there were 58 firearms related homicides in England and Wales (population approx 56 million) in the year 2010/11 and 2 in Scotland (population approx 5 million) for the same period.

In .
So 58 (for years 2010-11) divided by two is 29 average gun-related deaths in Engalnd/Wales per year. The US has close six times the population (near 300 million?), so ..

So, 6 multipled by 29 = 174. Why can't the US work to achieve under 200 deaths per year? Instead of the typical 8,000 - 10,000. Seems like gun control legislation is working very well in England. Why the huge difference? That's why lawmakers need to look at now.
 

wsabol

Gold Member
All of this is really difficult to comprehend. My heart goes out to everyone affected. Nothing can undo whats been done. That in itself is a terrible feeling. Media coverage and representation of school shootings recently has really exploded. It seems that these incidents are becoming more frequent, but school shootings are actually on the decline. The Federal Gov't issues a survey called "Indicators of School Crime and Safety" that finds schools are still the safest place for children, and kids are more likely to see violence out of school than in it. In my mind that says that we've been doing has been working. No system is perfect, troubled kids will still attempt these appalling acts, and they may even succeed, but more and more of these are being prevented and stopped. I see progress.

If you read about the safety precautions that that elementary school had in place that day, it's amazing. I really don't know how the shooter even got in the school..
 

Bad Tempered Clavier

Silver Member
So 58 (for years 2010-11) divided by two is 29 average gun-related deaths in Engalnd/Wales per year. The US has close six times the population (near 300 million?), so ..

So, 6 multipled by 29 = 174. Why can't the US work to achieve under 200 deaths per year? Instead of the typical 8,000 - 10,000. Seems like gun control legislation is working very well in England. Why the huge difference? That's why lawmakers need to look at now.
Sorry to be pedantic, as I take your overall point, but just to clarify - the period described as 2010/11 in their statistics is 12 months, not 24, so that means 58 homicides in England and Wales in one year. Over a 12 year period there were 758 recorded firearm related homicides in England and Wales which averages just over 63 per year.

In a ten year period from 1997 to 2006 the total number of recorded firearm related deaths - which included "accident, suicide, homicide and undetermined intent" in the UK was 1,985 - or an average of 199 per year. Figures from 2002 showed England and Wales having 0.38 firearm related deaths per 100,000 population for that year and 0.28 for Scotland.
 

Bad Tempered Clavier

Silver Member
To put the above statistics into perspective - in 2007 The International Action Network on Small Arms (IANSA) produced some literature called Gun Violence: The Global Crisis. At that time they listed England and Wales as having 0.10 firearm related homicides per 100,000 population. The USA statistic of 3.92 per 100,000 - or nearly 40 times as many - appears to be much higher though not as high as Mexico at 5.11, Panama at 7.12, Jamaica at 16.97, or - highest of all - Colombia at 49.52 firearm homicides per 100,000 or approximately 500 times as many as England and Wales. With a total population of about 45,000,000 that equates to roughly 22,000 per year.
 

dmacc_2

Well-known member
...It's a difficult and complex problem, I agree, but there are things that we can do to help. I hope solutions are studied that cover all angles, protection of the school and our students, mental health issues and more.
Positively. This is way more than just guns. I'd take up way too much DW server space to account for a fraction of the issues the teachers in my family have encountered. None of them involved a gun, but all of a threat of violence of violence itself to the teachers and other staff. Remember - I'm talking Elementary here..... These kids eventually grow up and who knows what happens...........

Adding more fuel to the mix is the political correctness that hogties us over certain topics - mental illness and all that comes with it (before anyone decides to spit fire with me, I have lived with a mentally ill brother who was quite capable of violence equal to what has occurred so I'm well aware of both sides of that argument), lack of parents being parents, children being able to run the show with no consequences, etc...... My list can go on for a while.

Guns is just the weapon, the underlying reasons are another deal altogether. Multiple issues going on here........
 
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larryz

Platinum Member
It is not just guns although that is one topic that must be discussed; there are other factors to consider. I always felt that there had to be some link and this seems to be one of them.
They hand this stuff out like it was candy and those ads; please!


http://www.forbiddenknowledgetv.com/videos/drugs/the-link-between-psychiatric-drugs-andnearly-all-recent-mass-shootings.html
Yes I totally agree this is huge part of the equation. Sadly another result of the influence of pharmaceutical industry inthe U.S. Nearly 33% of advertising revenue on the largest television networks in from drug companies. Hence, criticism of their ridiculous ads is non-existent on news programs. I've heard or seen nothing of the sort so far w/regard to this tragedy.
 

Deathmetalconga

Platinum Member
You know Martin I was going to post a similar response. Except I think the teachers, and indeed any adult working there, should have a defensive weapon, possibly something non lethal that can incapacitate a person. I mean it's reached that point. So OK bringing real guns in school would be a hot topic, but how about something as effective, but not deadly?

Like a taser or something along those lines. I see nothing wrong with that, only because what we have now, meaning nothing, isn't working.

I can't help wondering if everyone was armed for real, what would that do to todays society? Would it make more shootings or less shootings? I might be less inclined to shoot if everyone else was armed. It could go the other way too. I wonder how it would actually play out.
Armored car people carry weapons because they have to guard very valuable things and are at risk of violence because of it. As we are discovering, so are teachers. I think they should have tasers too, but at least one defensive firearm should be kept at the schools, in a vault with something like a fingerprint ID lock. Only trained teachers and administrators should have access to it and they should need to qualify regularly on their training.

It is impossible to stop anything like this from happening. Any coward gunman with enough determination can do this with even worse weapons. One component of the solution is to give teachers the means to better defend their schools with thier lives.
 
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