Rudiments and speed in BPM?

Auspicious

Well-known member
Hello folks

Well as I don't have a good professor, sometimes, I need to ask a few questions such as this one. (actually DW might be the ultimate teacher)

I want to know if there some kind of target BPM speed associated with each of the 40 rudiments? A minimum speed limit to say, YES i can do it with the accents, it's stable and it's fast enough. (I am not talking about distributing it on the kit but playing it on a practice pad, for the moment)

The first 2 categories, the single stroke rudiments and the drum roll rudiments from #1 to #15, I think it's possible to gain impressive speed with theses, I am not too concerned. We often see a drummer showing off his doubles skills, it can be very fast.

But for the other sections such as the Paradiddles, flams and drags.. these are more complex and it's difficult for me to fix a standard BMP target for each of them.. example the single flammed mill #25... what should be my goal for that one or the Inverted Flam Tap #29?

For the Paradiddle, I hear them often in jazz, so I have a slightly better idea, at most.

If you have an advice.

Thanks.
 

bermuda

Drummerworld Pro Drummer - Administrator
Staff member
Classic marching-band tempo is right around 132bpm, so that would be a realistic goal for any of the classic rudiments. Nothing wrong with going faster, but don't knock yourself out just for the sake of speed. Some rudiments just don't translate well at blinding speeds, no matter how well you execute them. If you reach 150 - and that's pretty brisk, especially for doubles - I'd say you've excelled.
 

Auspicious

Well-known member
Classic marching-band tempo is right around 132bpm, so that would be a realistic goal for any of the classic rudiments. Nothing wrong with going faster, but don't knock yourself out just for the sake of speed. Some rudiments just don't translate well at blinding speeds, no matter how well you execute them. If you reach 150 - and that's pretty brisk, especially for doubles - I'd say you've excelled.
Yeah Oh!! well that's good news!

I thought I would need to go above 200 BPM, seriously!, I tried some rudiments at 180 BPM with quite a bit of struggle today.. and, I am happy to know that my exercise was overkill. I will now focus on acheving much better results with the goal of reaching 132 BPM first (or less with some rudiments) then i'll raise the speed to 150 after..

That will be my goal for the moment.

I am relieved a bit :)

Thanks for the info Bermuda
 
If you want some sort of benchmark, you can go crazy with this site: https://vicfirth.zildjian.com/education/40-essential-rudiments.html
But don't make those extreme speeds (Diamond) your goal if you compromise sound and control. I ended up in that dead end street. Instead, getting them quiet and precise was more helpful. Also playing them as different rhythms (triplets, 3 over 4...) and putting accents on toms translate to more vocabulary and control.
You could also get Tommy Igoe's "Great Hands" or Wilcoxon books to look for gaps and to work on transitions between rudiments - both are highly recommended.
 
It's been on the Vic Firth page for years, so if you haven't been there before, that might explain that you didn't know it yet. :)
Some more good materials that focus on individual rudiments and then use them in different ways: Bill Bachman's Stick Technique, Joe Morello's Rudimental Jazz, Matt Savage's Savage Rudimental Workshop.
 

C.M. Jones

Well-known member
It's been on the Vic Firth page for years, so if you haven't been there before, that might explain that you didn't know it yet. :)
Some more good materials that focus on individual rudiments and then use them in different ways: Bill Bachman's Stick Technique, Joe Morello's Rudimental Jazz, Matt Savage's Savage Rudimental Workshop.
Got it. I always seem to forget about Zildjian's merger with Vic Firth.
 

toddbishop

Platinum Member
Normal march range-- maybe quarter note = high 90s to ~130, or the equivalent adjusted for 6/8. Normal upper limit is maybe 150s-160s for many of them.

Another good book is Mitch Peters's Rudimental Primer.
 

Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX

Well-known member
It's been on the Vic Firth page for years, so if you haven't been there before, that might explain that you didn't know it yet. :)
Some more good materials that focus on individual rudiments and then use them in different ways: Bill Bachman's Stick Technique, Joe Morello's Rudimental Jazz, Matt Savage's Savage Rudimental Workshop.
also Bachman's Rudimental Logic...this, and the Matt Savage book mentioned above have been staples for me and my program at school for years

and 120-132 (as mentioned by Bermuda) is good for just about all applications unless you are going into the DCI/WGi level of competition, then you would want to be proficient between 160-210 depending on the rudiment and the subdivision it is played over.

For me and my students who are goin for that level, I try to get them to be good at duple based (16th notes as skeleton) rolls up to 140-150, then (8th note triplet)triple based rolls all the way up to 200.

The 4 Diddle rudiments played as 16ths all the way into the 220's or higher

The "staple" Flam rudiments - Flam's, Flam Accents, Flam Taps, Swiss Army Trips and Flam Paradiddle's - should float between 150-200bpm, again, depending on the skeleton subdivision that they are written on

my kids who do not plan on going on to that level of playing all try to get to the 160-180 range by their senior year since our music in marching band tends to float in those ranges a lot...
 

Auspicious

Well-known member
Thanks for sharing all of these ideas.

also Bachman's Rudimental Logic...this, and the Matt Savage book mentioned above have been staples for me and my program at school for years

and 120-132 (as mentioned by Bermuda) is good for just about all applications unless you are going into the DCI/WGi level of competition, then you would want to be proficient between 160-210 depending on the rudiment and the subdivision it is played over.

For me and my students who are goin for that level, I try to get them to be good at duple based (16th notes as skeleton) rolls up to 140-150, then (8th note triplet)triple based rolls all the way up to 200.

The 4 Diddle rudiments played as 16ths all the way into the 220's or higher

The "staple" Flam rudiments - Flam's, Flam Accents, Flam Taps, Swiss Army Trips and Flam Paradiddle's - should float between 150-200bpm, again, depending on the skeleton subdivision that they are written on

my kids who do not plan on going on to that level of playing all try to get to the 160-180 range by their senior year since our music in marching band tends to float in those ranges a lot...
Ok ok , competition is not for me. I can't even play anything simple 😁 I'll stick to 132 for the moment.

What do you mean by the 4 diddle rudiment played as 16th ? This might be a silly question but I don't understand. The Double Paradiddle is 8th notes tripled based how can it be played as 16th ?

:(
 
You could play it as 6 16ths. If you start on 1: 1+2+3+4+1+2+3+4+... (bold counts are where it starts,I just wrote 8ths counting to make it less cluttered)
 

Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX

Well-known member
Thanks for sharing all of these ideas.



Ok ok , competition is not for me. I can't even play anything simple 😁 I'll stick to 132 for the moment.

What do you mean by the 4 diddle rudiment played as 16th ? This might be a silly question but I don't understand. The Double Paradiddle is 8th notes tripled based how can it be played as 16th ?

:(
the 4 diddle rudiments are : single paradiddle; double paradiddle; triple paradiddle; paradiddle-diddle

this sheet shows single paradiddles and double paradiddles played over a 16th note subdivision: #2 and #6. In this case, the double paradiddle is, or can be perceived as either sixtuplets, or a measure of 3/4 with the first one starting on beat "one" and the second one starting on the "and" of 3. Seeing it as 8th note triplets is also not incorrect, we just chose to show it as 16ths

OMEA New Rudiment List C.jpg

this also shows the rest of the rudiments for our "Fundamental", or Class C category for our State Solo and ensemble contest. I was on the committee that revised and renewed this list from our old, outdated one.

and it I definitely suggest that you do them at tempos comfortable for your own hands. Even with my kids, we don't go "faster than their technique will allow", but there is a prescribed progression that they go through. I just listed the extreme/end results of 4-6 years of pratice for them

ALSO!! The suggestion to play them from slow, progressing to as fast as is comfortable, and back to slow will help you develop and increase speed. The more you do this, the faster you will become.
 
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Auspicious

Well-known member
@Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX

Ok ok I see now, of course sixtuplets they are 16th notes. (I have the double paradiddle in triplets on my sheet of rudiments.) I will do as you suggest, play at tempos comfortable to my hands and as fast as comfortable.

I noticed a gain of speed just this morning in the "drag" section, the progression speed is there at some level. In fact after maybe 1 month of practicing almost each mornings 15 minutes, it's effective.
 

Auspicious

Well-known member
Went over some random rudiments on that vic firth page. It's funny, some of them I can play Platinum or even Diamond with not too much strain, but others.....dear god that's fast.
Ok yes I see now, I could not see the webpage with the bronze, silver, gold, platinium. I tool some time to configure my computer (4 secondes) and I have it now.

Yes I will use the page to "gauge" my speed, of course, good idea especially on harder rudiments, slower ones.
 

Auspicious

Well-known member
I find some rudiments to be complicate to play with the accenst, for instance the single paradiddle is at the first note of each 16th note. And trying to put an accent there is greatly reducing the overall speed of the rudiment.. (for me) as if it was not natural to apply.

While the Double Paradiddle and the Single Paradiddle Diddle, triplet based, it's much easier to apply the required accents with a good definition and without compromising too much speed.

The single paradiddle especially.. I wonder If I don't prefer practicing it minus the accents.

I must be wrong again. :cautious:
 

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
I find some rudiments to be complicate to play with the accenst, for instance the single paradiddle is at the first note of each 16th note. And trying to put an accent there is greatly reducing the overall speed of the rudiment.. (for me) as if it was not natural to apply.

While the Double Paradiddle and the Single Paradiddle Diddle, triplet based, it's much easier to apply the required accents with a good definition and without compromising too much speed.

The single paradiddle especially.. I wonder If I don't prefer practicing it minus the accents.

I must be wrong again. :cautious:
You dont have to play the accent. You can learn the pattern as is, then when you are comfortable with the pattern, go back and insert the accents. The accents arent set in stone. You can move the accent around to wherever you want. The independence your hands develop is the important part.
 

Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX

Well-known member
I find some rudiments to be complicate to play with the accenst, for instance the single paradiddle is at the first note of each 16th note. And trying to put an accent there is greatly reducing the overall speed of the rudiment.. (for me) as if it was not natural to apply.

While the Double Paradiddle and the Single Paradiddle Diddle, triplet based, it's much easier to apply the required accents with a good definition and without compromising too much speed.

The single paradiddle especially.. I wonder If I don't prefer practicing it minus the accents.

I must be wrong again. :cautious:
the act of having 2 heights happen in the same hand - which is called "accent/tap" in the marching percussion world - is sort of tricky at first because it is long and short muscle movement very close together. Within the Paradiddle sticking is a "break down sticking", which you find by playing the sticking of the rudiment with one hand on the drum, and the other on the leg. For the Single Paradiddle, the right hand break down is: R rr r, where the big R is the accent. Notice that you have the accent, and then 2 small hits, or taps. That is the "Accent/Tap" think I am talking about


You have to develop some agility to get this to happen quicker. This just takes time. If you remove, or ignore the accented note, you will not get better, or solve the problem. In the other 2 rudiments you mentioned, it is easier because there is more time between the accented note happening again

...and also what MrInsanepolack said as well...but eventually you do need to get the accents on them...
 

Auspicious

Well-known member
Ok ok I'll put more energy on the Single Paradiddle to see how it goes.

I think it's by far the most difficult rudiment of the 4 from a snare only point of view.
 

Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX

Well-known member
Ok ok I'll put more energy on the Single Paradiddle to see how it goes.

I think it's by far the most difficult rudiment of the 4 from a snare only point of view.
a quick little hint as well to help get those going would be to play 4 of them with no accent, and then try 4 with the accent, then just loop this phrase.

like this:

rlrr lrll rlrr lrll Rlrr Lrll Rlrr Lrll then just loop this.

This is one of the things that I do with my students to get them over the same thing you are dealing with
 
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