Research Survey - Snare Drum Project

Mighty_Joker

Silver Member
I think North American separates us from the Basel Swiss tradition, and the Scottish tradition of rudiments...and if memory serves me, the Socttish is influenced by the Basel
From my perspective as a Brit, the North American Rudimental Tradition is a completely institutionalised, formalised, and standardised syllabus for a very high level of rudimental drumming in a way that just doesn't exist over here. That's not to say all US drummers are inherently better, but the college education and high degree produces a real institution. I coined the term via my interactions with Bob Becker, who used it to describe his own background.
 
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C.M. Jones

Well-known member
From my perspective as a Brit, the North American Rudimental Tradition is a completely institutionalised, formalised, and standardised syllabus for a very high level of rudimental drumming in a way that just doesn't exist over here. That's not to say all US drummers are inherently better, but the college education and high degree produces a real institution. I coined to term via my interactions with Bob Becker, who used it to describe his own background.
I'd never encountered the term before you mentioned it, but I suppose I'm a product of the North American Rudimental Tradition. The instructor with whom I started taking lessons at age eleven was a rudimental fanatic, and I mean that in a flattering way. He had me focus on nothing but rudiments during my first year-and-a-half under his tutelage. I'm glad he did. My rudimental foundation served me well once we added a drum kit to my training, and I continue to incorporate a lot of rudimental subtlety into the music I play today. In my eyes, a practice session isn't complete unless a portion of it is devoted to rudimental work, likely a bias I formed through my early exposure to rudimental rigor.
 

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
I'd never encountered the term before you mentioned it, but I suppose I'm a product of the North American Rudimental Tradition. The instructor with whom I started taking lessons at age eleven was a rudimental fanatic, and I mean that in a flattering way. He had me focus on nothing but rudiments during my first year-and-a-half under his tutelage. I'm glad he did. My rudimental foundation served me well once we added a drum kit to my training, and I continue to incorporate a lot of rudimental subtlety into the music I play today. In my eyes, a practice session isn't complete unless a portion of it is devoted to rudimental work, likely a bias I formed through my early exposure to rudimental rigor.
My teacher was the same way, old school, rudiments are the path, etc. We used a drumset from day 1 however. It was about 50/50 pad and kit at each lesson.
 

IBitePrettyHard

Senior Member
I took the survey, although I would change my answer on the Figure 1 vs Figure 2 question. I didn't know exactly what it was asking, which method we prefered? Anyway, I answered Figure 1...but that was before I realized you were asking in regard to a drag or ruff, I guess? Anyway, if you're asking which is a better representation of a Ruff or Drag, I would say Figure 2, haha.
 

toddbishop

Platinum Member
From my perspective as a Brit, the North American Rudimental Tradition is a completely institutionalised, formalised, and standardised syllabus
I don’t know how standardized it is— a lot of it is still debated, with different communities having competing semi-standard interpretations. With drags and ruffs especially. It always has been— reading GL Stone’s articles from the 40s-50s, it’s all about the same stuff, interpretation of rudiments and notation.
 

Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX

Well-known member
My teacher was the same way, old school, rudiments are the path, etc. We used a drumset from day 1 however. It was about 50/50 pad and kit at each lesson.
me too, and my students ALL start on snare, with 8 on a hand, page 1 of the Stone Stick control book, and paradiddles...we do snare for the first 6 months, then move on to bells, where we learn the "rudiments" of melody (scales); they also move on to set at this time if they have one, or this is when I start talking to the parents about buying one

by the 6 month mark, (if they do THEIR job of practicing at home), we will have hit paradiddles, double paradiddles, and triple paradiddles, double strokes (but slow ones, not rolls yet), single stroke rolls, buzz rolls. I feel like ALL drumming is some combination of single strokes on 1 hand (like 8 on a hand) alternated strokes, double strokes, triple strokes and buzz rolls...once you get these 5 foundational strokes going, it is just a matter of application within patterns

so to me, am open drag is a combination of one double stroke, and one single stroke....a closed drag is the combination of 1 buzz stroke, and one single stroke. I try to get my kids to identify, breakdown, and then build up everything to these 5 nucleus beats.....then, when we are fixing, they can break it back down to that level
 

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
I feel like ALL drumming is some combination of single strokes on 1 hand (like 8 on a hand) alternated strokes, double strokes, triple strokes and buzz rolls...once you get these 5 foundational strokes going, it is just a matter of application within patterns
I have a similar thought, but its singles, doubles, unisons, and flams. I added flams recently because they can be used as an accent and hidden in the pattern, but require a different spacing.

Example: triplet feel R r r L l l. It is 6 notes, easy enough. Keep the triplet feel, flam the 1st R and 1st L. You have added 2 strokes for a total of 8, but the flams occupy 1 notes space. The feel doesn't change, so I think of the flam as it's own kind of stroke using both hands.
 

Push pull stroke

Platinum Member
so to me, am open drag is a combination of one double stroke, and one single stroke....a closed drag is the combination of 1 buzz stroke, and one single stroke.
There is no such thing as a “closed drag”. That’s something that somebody made up, and somehow it stuck.Literally nobody with a full-time orchestra gig plays “closed drags“. You’d get laughed out of an audition for such a thing. For real.
 

roncadillac

Member
How in the world did the word “stank” come up? Lol
I don't remember off hand if it was explaining (what I think is) the difference between figure 1 & figure 2 as well as how I would play them or if it was where I was explaining what a 'drag' is and how I use it in my playing. One or the other, I had a glass of whiskey since then lol.
 

Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX

Well-known member
There is no such thing as a “closed drag”. That’s something that somebody made up, and somehow it stuck.Literally nobody with a full-time orchestra gig plays “closed drags“. You’d get laughed out of an audition for such a thing. For real.
except all of the orchestral guys I talk to or deal with....who differentiate between open and closed drags by saying that they are closed...that is where I first heard it actually...now, they might have been using that description to differentiate between the way they are played in marching versus orchestral, but that is where I first heard it...and many of them are also guys who play in groups beyond the orchestra...

funny how there are many "bubbles" around the world, and some are different than others....
 

Push pull stroke

Platinum Member
except all of the orchestral guys I talk to or deal with....who differentiate between open and closed drags by saying that they are closed...that is where I first heard it actually...now, they might have been using that description to differentiate between the way they are played in marching versus orchestral, but that is where I first heard it...and many of them are also guys who play in groups beyond the orchestra...

funny how there are many "bubbles" around the world, and some are different than others....
Nobody buzzes a drag in the orchestral world. Period. Ever. That’s not what I “heard”. It’s what I know. There are definitely “bubbles” within the orchestral world. However, there are no buzzed drags. Ever. I’ve had a couple of ignorant conductors ask for them. They have all been ignored. LOL
 

toddbishop

Platinum Member
Uhhh that's how orchestral snare drummers play ordinary ruffs (what PAS and you guys are calling a drag) out here in Cirone/Dowd-land, with a multiple bounce stroke. We even did them that way in corps.
 

Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX

Well-known member
Uhhh that's how orchestral snare drummers play ordinary ruffs (what PAS and you guys are calling a drag) out here in Cirone/Dowd-land, with a multiple bounce stroke. We even did them that way in corps.
funny, cause the Cirone book is one that first comes to mind where I heard orchestral players buzz the drag...I have studied with players from the Cleveland, Columbus, Pittsburgh and Philadelphia orchestras, and they all played drags buzzed...unless told not to by the conductor or writer of the piece

I would get "busted" for playing them open: "This is not marching band, close that up buddy" is what I got all the time

...I am not making this up..I know I am not crazy...granted it was 15 years ago, so standards might have changed...

now on tymps I was taught that you never play them closed, or as a double stroke...it is like a quick "2 stroke roll"

used in corps/competitive situations as well, especially for textural effects; did you use them closed regularly when you marched?
 

Push pull stroke

Platinum Member
funny, cause the Cirone book is one that first comes to mind where I heard orchestral players buzz the drag...I have studied with players from the Cleveland, Columbus, Pittsburgh and Philadelphia orchestras, and they all played drags buzzed...unless told not to by the conductor or writer of the piece

I would get "busted" for playing them open: "This is not marching band, close that up buddy" is what I got all the time

...I am not making this up..I know I am not crazy...granted it was 15 years ago, so standards might have changed...

now on tymps I was taught that you never play them closed, or as a double stroke...it is like a quick "2 stroke roll"

used in corps/competitive situations as well, especially for textural effects; did you use them closed regularly when you marched?
Orchestral players play what’s written. If there are two grace notes, you play two. If three, you play three. What I’m saying is never done is some kind of pressed buzz of indeterminate number of bounces. The actual sticking of a drag is pretty much always the same as rudimental playing. A 4 stroke ruff/drag (3 grace notes) can either be played RLLR/LRRL or just alternating RLRL/LRLR.

I’ve had several conductors try to get me to play ruffs with a pressed buzz instead of just a double stroke. THAT’S not correct, stylistically. Performance practice in the orchestral world is universal in that regard, I assure you. I went to school with a guy who got his undergrad at Cleveland with Yancich/Weiner, and I studied with the guys in the Dallas Symphony. In addition, I also went to school with guys who got their undergrads at New England Conservatory with Vic Firth, and Indiana with Gerry Carlyss. NOBODY plays ruffs with pressed buzzes. Lol
 
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