DrumEatDrum
Platinum Member
Is it bad I keep getting distracted by the beer taps off to the side in one of the pictures?
Cheers Jason I'm just back from the event, but having to travel today, so will update here this evening. It'll be a long post, but full of info about the presentation of 20+ drum kits, & how that presentation translates into real world useable sound quality.A very thoughtful and useful thread (as usual) from you Andy. I actually just played a festival gig and was wondering about what such an event might require from an engineer. I listened to bands before and after our set and despite all kinds of differences in instrumentation and voices, everything sounded great. Since you've been on both sides of these things, I'm wondering if you might have any suggestions for drummers. What seems especially important to help insure the success of these types of performances?
Thanks!
Jason
Is it bad I keep getting distracted by the beer taps off to the side in one of the pictures?
every drummer there said the same thing. " that grumpy old tone deaf geezer screwed up my drum sound"...at least that's the report im going with...
B*%^$ds ------------ every 4 bars actuallyHe also set up wind chimes at the sound desk and added them where he thought it was needed. Not much, just every 8 bars or so of every song that every band played.
He also set up wind chimes at the sound desk and added them where he thought it was needed. Not much, just every 8 bars or so of every song that every band played.
Absolutely, on all counts Larry. I often play reasonable size gigs using only bass drum & two overheads, but it takes a well tuned kit that delivers tone to carry that off, & a sound engineer who's willing/able to depart from the norm. The reason that's uncommon in most small - medium festival/multi band gigs it two fold. 1: the engineer wants as much control of the soundscape as possible, & also wants to keep a common tech policy across performances. 2: Trust me, in such situations, you're very lucky if 1 in 20 kits turn up prepared correctly for that mic'ing technique in general amplified popular music presentations. if you mic'd up every kit that arrived on stage with two overheads & a bass drum mic, the result would be mostly horrible & very thin. Close mic'ing is a way of adding "weight" to the presentation, & that's what most engineers shoot for. Indeed, it's what most drummers shoot for, but very few actually achieve. They want that "expensive" sound, but in reality, have no idea how to achieve it, & most don't have the drums or tuning skills that are able to deliver it unreinforced by close mic'ing & a sprinkling of EQ flavouring.What a great post chock full of useful information. Riddle me this Batman...for a drummer like myself who prefers everything wide open, zero muffling, with no holes cut....is it problematic to simply back the mics off?
Last time I miced for a festival, I asked the sound man (a friend) if he wouldn't mind if I used 2 overheads, snare and kick. Nothing close miced. OK the kick, sort of. He was very agreeable, stating that would make his job easier.
I really loved the sound of my drums that day. (every band used them so I got to hear them out front....a lot) The drums had atmosphere and sounded very natural. No muffling no porting. Close micing to me...the mics are too close to the head. Usually in a festival, the drum mics are far enough away from the other instruments to not pick up bleed, or very little as to be a non issue. So why not back them off a little?
Why close mic every tom when a pair of overheads works great? (assuming wide open tuning and no muffling) Every soundman knows the less mics onstage the easier the soundperson's job is. Tuning is way more important like this, I wouldn't want a dead thud sounding drum miced like this, but for someone who knows how to tune without muffling, I much prefer "far" micing. The sustain is more natural sounding. Even a bass drum with a full front head, I just make sure the mic is not dead center (too boomy to my ear) then I back mic off maybe 8" and it sounds beautiful to my ear.
Of course I don't have a whole lot of real life micing experience, but the last time I tried it my ideas worked great to my ear.
Thoughts Andy?
I want to go climb that hill.
Understatement of the decade! Getting to bed at 2:30AM & hauling back out at 10:00AM for yet another full on day is tough on an old boy like me, but I'm enjoying it. No time now, got to go, but I'll be back here with a full update & responses to questions in the next few days. Lots of stories, lots of kits in every state imaginable.
Until then, here's a few pictures so far.
Cheers, Andy.
What a great post chock full of useful information. Riddle me this Batman...for a drummer like myself who prefers everything wide open, zero muffling, with no holes cut....is it problematic to simply back the mics off?
Last time I miced for a festival, I asked the sound man (a friend) if he wouldn't mind if I used 2 overheads, snare and kick. Nothing close miced. OK the kick, sort of. He was very agreeable, stating that would make his job easier.
I really loved the sound of my drums that day. (every band used them so I got to hear them out front....a lot) The drums had atmosphere and sounded very natural. No muffling no porting. Close micing to me...the mics are too close to the head. Usually in a festival, the drum mics are far enough away from the other instruments to not pick up bleed, or very little as to be a non issue. So why not back them off a little?
Why close mic every tom when a pair of overheads works great? (assuming wide open tuning and no muffling) Every soundman knows the less mics onstage the easier the soundperson's job is. Tuning is way more important like this, I wouldn't want a dead thud sounding drum miced like this, but for someone who knows how to tune without muffling, I much prefer "far" micing. The sustain is more natural sounding. Even a bass drum with a full front head, I just make sure the mic is not dead center (too boomy to my ear) then I back mic off maybe 8" and it sounds beautiful to my ear.
Of course I don't have a whole lot of real life micing experience, but the last time I tried it my ideas worked great to my ear.
Thoughts Andy?
Absolutely, on all counts Larry. I often play reasonable size gigs using only bass drum & two overheads, but it takes a well tuned kit that delivers tone to carry that off, & a sound engineer who's willing/able to depart from the norm. The reason that's uncommon in most small - medium festival/multi band gigs it two fold. 1: the engineer wants as much control of the soundscape as possible, & also wants to keep a common tech policy across performances. 2: Trust me, in such situations, you're very lucky if 1 in 20 kits turn up prepared correctly for that mic'ing technique in general amplified popular music presentations. if you mic'd up every kit that arrived on stage with two overheads & a bass drum mic, the result would be mostly horrible & very thin. Close mic'ing is a way of adding "weight" to the presentation, & that's what most engineers shoot for. Indeed, it's what most drummers shoot for, but very few actually achieve. They want that "expensive" sound, but in reality, have no idea how to achieve it, & most don't have the drums or tuning skills that are able to deliver it unreinforced by close mic'ing & a sprinkling of EQ flavouring.
Very much farm country. I love this little festival. Great vibe all roundLove the hay bales in pics #5 and 6. Looks like farm country.
Agreed Grunt, it's not a big issue, but in my personal opinion, it's just a pointless design. having to jack up the front of the bass drum often places the drum on an angle, & that correspondingly places a warp strain on the batter hoop at the clamping position. As pedal base plate heights are often fixed, or can only be jacked on the mini spurs (that in themselves place the pedal on an angle), it's just a poor piece of design all round with no practical benefit that I can appreciate, but can have both detuning & pedal security implications.The gretsch kit has offset lugs and the batter head lugs are spaced so as not to be in the way of the pedal mount. The reso head should not be a problem if the legs are extended a bit to get the center lug off of the ground.
Exactly, it's a balance appraisal thing. Glyn Johns absolutely breathes more life into a kit capture, but that has to benefit the playing style as well as fit into the overall stage vibe. There are technical considerations (mainly monitoring), as well as the suitability of the kit as presented. Such an approach is usually best undertaken by prior discussion between artist & engineer.In recent months I've taken to mic'ing my kit (6 pieces) with two overheads, a bass drum mic and a not-close snare mic (Glyn Johns style) and I absolutely love it. For lack of better words, it sounds more "alive" and "natural." But as Andy mentioned, this works great with (a) drums that are tuned well and (b) drummers who can "mix" the kit within their playing (i.e., play different limbs/parts of the kit at different dynamic levels, such as mf hi-hats with ff snare backbeats). I just played a festival where many of the drums/drummers would have sounded crap with this arrangement. And as I expected close-mic'ing to be the order of the day, I put 2-ply heads on my toms and tuned the resos up a whole perfect fourth. As audience members and the recording told me afterward, they sounded wonderful. But with overheads only, I think they would have sounded thin and weak.
Great stuff as usual Andy. Thanks for taking the time to put all of this into a post.
Cheers A definitive guide to preparing your drums for live mic'ing would be difficult to do, because there's so many variables that are outside of your control. Exceptions being on tour with the same crew each night, or otherwise always using the same team. In terms of very general preparation were you have little idea of what you're walking into, my brief guide here is about as detailed as it's worth taking on board.I wish someone would write up a definitive guide for how to prep your drums for live mic'ing situations!
Of course, it has nothing to do with a loud drum sound, & everything to do with sitting the drums accurately in the mix. The bigger the venue, the bigger the system, the more reliant any acoustic instrument becomes on reinforcement. You can use PA reinforcement to your advantage too. Adding "weight" to your sound, especially the bass drum, brings your drums in line with the "bigger than life" vibe afforded to the whole band performance. It's all about balance & context.One thing I like about playing an acoustic instrument is not having to worry about electronic components. I leave all that mic'ing business to the other guys to deal with. I've never cared to have a loud drum sound anyway, so I'm always happy with whatever extra sound they give me. It probably sounds crazy and ignorant to a guy who does Sound Engineering. One thing I've never cared for is snare mic'ing. It bugs me having something clipped to my snare drum, or finding room for some mic stand to fit a mic between my hats and left cymbal.
MYTH - "It doesn't matter wether my kit sounds good or not, because through a big PA system, they all sound the same".
One thing I've never cared for is snare mic'ing. It bugs me having something clipped to my snare drum, or finding room for some mic stand to fit a mic between my hats and left cymbal.
As for snare mic'ing, I'm with you there, although a good engineer can sneak a mic in without playing compromise or intrusion. You can run a 3 mic capture in almost any scenario (except maybe loud stage & big monitoring), but that relies very much on the quality of the drum sound. Quite honestly, most drummers fall well short in terms of presenting an instrument that's suitable for such an approach, & also, because they don't do this so often, usually lack the skills to augment dynamics accordingly. As a separate but related subject, this is where tactile monitoring works so well.
Anyway, the tips you laid out are great, but kinda general. I'd love to hear some specifics and/or anecdotes from the festival on what worked and what didn't, what you liked and what you didn't, etc. For instance, for the kits you posted pictures of: what did you appreciate about the kit/head selection/muffling that made your job easier, and what challenges did each kit present and how did you deal with them?