Religious Discussions on Drummerworld

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bobdadruma

Platinum Member
Agree with Bernhard about being uncomfortable with purely religious topics for threads (as opposed to just religious references).

But for the record I actually also get a bit peeved by lots of references as well - it can be annoying for drummers of other faiths or of no faith or angostics or atheists to see Christian stuff pop up all over the place spoken as if it is a normal world view, when it is not normal in many parts of the drumming community both globally and locally.

However I also understand that they are not trying to wind anyone up and I actually find the discussions about drumming in Churches very interesting.

Censorship is a rocky road so I would vote for a) a reiteration of the 'no religion rule' and be b) really just ignore it. As someone once said 'They know not what they do!'

Peace.
Good Point! My fundamental belief is that censorship is wrong. I agree that we also have the freedom to ignore what we don't want to read or talk about. I saw many people who couldn't ignore it. They were lashing out at the people who they disagreed with and that was causing problems. I also agree that the Christians were not trying to "Wind anyone up".
 

bobdadruma

Platinum Member
Offending you? If you're offended by people explaining what they believe in, then that's ignorant and narrow minded of you. I agree, don't talk about religion on here, but to be offended, unless they're attacking you personally, is ignorant. I guess you're offended by Christmas and Easter then eh?
I wasn't ofended. I was pointing out that other people were ofended. I found the treads interesting. My main question was do they belong in the main forums?
 

mrchattr

Gold Member
Offending you? If you're offended by people explaining what they believe in, then that's ignorant and narrow minded of you. I agree, don't talk about religion on here, but to be offended, unless they're attacking you personally, is ignorant. I guess you're offended by Christmas and Easter then eh?
The problem is that often, on both sides, people come across as offensive. There's a big difference between stating an opinion, and coming across as thinking you're (the person posting, not you personally) better than another person. It's the difference between: "Well, I believe that God gave us all gifts, some more than others," and "Look, God gives us gifts, that's where they come from, not from us, and you're stupid for thinking differently."

Or the difference between: "I have a question about Christianity. Why would you believe that God blesses people that don't believe in him?" and "See, this is why Christians are stupid. You believe that God blesses people that don't even believe in him. What the heck would the point of that be? There isn't one."

Also, the other thing I found offensive in some of the posts was the lack of actual conversation. A few of the people I engaged actually discussed my responses, I discussed theirs, etc. But other people just threw out the standard dogma that they use to "prove" their beliefs (either pro-God or anti-God) and if you argued against them, or showed another possible way to look at it, just ignored that post and attacked someone else's.

I think that is the kind of stuff that people find offensive.
 

bobdadruma

Platinum Member
The problem is that often, on both sides, people come across as offensive. There's a big difference between stating an opinion, and coming across as thinking you're (the person posting, not you personally) better than another person. It's the difference between: "Well, I believe that God gave us all gifts, some more than others," and "Look, God gives us gifts, that's where they come from, not from us, and you're stupid for thinking differently."

Or the difference between: "I have a question about Christianity. Why would you believe that God blesses people that don't believe in him?" and "See, this is why Christians are stupid. You believe that God blesses people that don't even believe in him. What the heck would the point of that be? There isn't one."

Also, the other thing I found offensive in some of the posts was the lack of actual conversation. A few of the people I engaged actually discussed my responses, I discussed theirs, etc. But other people just threw out the standard dogma that they use to "prove" their beliefs (either pro-God or anti-God) and if you argued against them, or showed another possible way to look at it, just ignored that post and attacked someone else's.

I think that is the kind of stuff that people find offensive.
Thank you, those are examples of the type of offensive behavior that I was speaking of. People didn't like or want to see someone's religious view so they responded with a post that was deliberatly ment to offend the other posters.
 

bobdadruma

Platinum Member
I would like to point out that this forum is viewed by young children from all around the world. What we say here is read by them. We must always keep this in mind before we post material that could be seen as sensitive. As Bernhard has implied, we should limit our comments to the craft of percussion. There is no place here for controversial topics. They will only serve to discredit this forum.
 

GruntersDad

Administrator - Mayor
Staff member
...and I only have flims.

I have been accused many times, not on here, of being very black and white. On this subject, I admit to it, No Religion or Politics. No one is hurt, nor offended.
 

aydee

Platinum Member
I have Tony's flams...on video...
..or Elvin's spangalang,
Gadd's paradiddles,
Billy Higgin's left hand,
Colauita's soul,
Steve Jordan's heart
Copeland's or Lenny White's hi-hat,
Mike Clark's right foot,
Horacio's or Antonio Sanchez's left foot,
Mangini's or Donati's brain...
 

Dystisis

Member
I think the rules of drummerworld explicitly state that no religious or political discussions are permitted for the reasons already mentioned. They inevitably deteriorate into a slanging match that gets abusive & personal.

Having said that, music does have very ancient & deep connections with religion and spirituality, and in a perfect world it would have been nice to discuss these connections in an intellectual sense with other musicians.
Agree, how about there is made something like a Music Philosophy or Theory forum section? Where it would be possible to discuss music theory, maybe some history and musics connection to society or philosophy and where the different styles come into play.

I sure would find it interesting. ;)
 

bobdadruma

Platinum Member
Agree, how about there is made something like a Music Philosophy or Theory forum section? Where it would be possible to discuss music theory, maybe some history and musics connection to society or philosophy and where the different styles come into play.

I sure would find it interesting. ;)
With certain ground rules that would be Interesting, Educational and Appropriate.
 

burnthehero

Pioneer Member
As a devout athiest, I find religious discussions to be more irrelevant and pointless than offensive. And, therefore not needed on this forum.
 

aydee

Platinum Member
Agree, how about there is made something like a Music Philosophy or Theory forum section? Where it would be possible to discuss music theory, maybe some history and musics connection to society or philosophy and where the different styles come into play.

I sure would find it interesting. ;)
This issue of religion & music is really like a lot of the"What is jazz" threads. It's a subject so wide open to interpretation that often its blows a gasket midway and really interesting conversations come to a grinding halt.

If somehow the discussion stays connected to music, it makes it meaningful.
I've played the drums off and on for over 20 years. And to this day the real reason I play is mainly this. In all this time, there may have been 1 or 2 or maximum 3 times, when I think I might have seen the light. It is an explosion in my head, an illuminating, yet fleeting moment.
An out of body experience of sorts. Everything suddenly is so in the pocket, so perfect, its like watching someone else play. There seems to be a force inside you which is doing the playing.
This moment is so moving and emotional and powerful that it is felt by the other musicians & listeners also.

The words many use to describe this feeling are orgasmic, nirvana, the truth, a high etc...but to me this comes the closest to being a powerful religious experience.

It is rare and not easily attainable, but this is the feeling that I chase and crave.
It seems to come when your mind and heart are in the right place and you become one with your instrument and your music and at that precise moment, nothing else matters.

That to me is salvation.

I also happen to believe that most 'real' musicians follow this God.

Airto once said that musicians are the transmitters of whatever it is that out there .. or up there. We, as musicians connect to it, convert it to sound and transmit to others. How else could you create a sound and the vibe & energy of that be felt by so many at the same time, in the same powerful way.

Something to think about, imo.
 

aydee

Platinum Member
Agree, how about there is made something like a Music Philosophy or Theory forum section? Where it would be possible to discuss music theory, maybe some history and musics connection to society or philosophy and where the different styles come into play.

I sure would find it interesting. ;)
This issue of religion & music is really like a lot of the"What is jazz" threads. It's a subject so wide open to interpretation that often its blows a gasket midway and really interesting conversations come to a grinding halt.

If somehow the discussion stays connected to music, it makes it meaningful.
I've played the drums off and on for over 20 years. And to this day the real reason I play is mainly this. In all this time, there may have been 1 or 2 or maximum 3 times, when I think I might have seen the light. It is an explosion in my head, an illuminating, yet fleeting moment.
An out of body experience of sorts. Everything suddenly is so in the pocket, so perfect, its like watching someone else play. There seems to be a force inside you which is doing the playing.
This moment is so moving and emotional and powerful that it is felt by the other musicians & listeners also.

The words many use to describe this feeling are orgasmic, nirvana, the truth, a high etc...but to me this comes the closest to being a powerful religious experience.

It is rare and not easily attainable, but this is the feeling that I chase and crave.
It seems to come when your mind and heart are in the right place and you become one with your instrument and your music and at that precise moment, nothing else matters.

That to me is salvation.

I also happen to believe that most 'real' musicians follow this God.

Airto once said that musicians are the transmitters of whatever it is that out there .. or up there. We, as musicians connect to it, convert it to sound and transmit to others. How else could you create a sound and the vibe & energy of that be felt by so many at the same time, in the same powerful way.

Something to think about, and debate imo.
 

zambizzi

Platinum Member
..or Elvin's spangalang,
Gadd's paradiddles,
Billy Higgin's left hand,
Colauita's soul,
Steve Jordan's heart
Copeland's or Lenny White's hi-hat,
Mike Clark's right foot,
Horacio's or Antonio Sanchez's left foot,
Mangini's or Donati's brain...
I have Buddy's sour, constipated drumming face.
 

kwolf68

Senior Member
An out of body experience of sorts. Everything suddenly is so in the pocket, so perfect, its like watching someone else play. There seems to be a force inside you which is doing the playing.
This moment is so moving and emotional and powerful that it is felt by the other musicians & listeners also.

The words many use to describe this feeling are orgasmic, nirvana, the truth, a high etc...but to me this comes the closest to being a powerful religious experience.

It is rare and not easily attainable, but this is the feeling that I chase and crave.
It seems to come when your mind and heart are in the right place and you become one with your instrument and your music and at that precise moment, nothing else matters.

That to me is salvation.
You think you described 'salvation' where others would say you described an acid trip.

And spare us PLEASE with your 'real musicians follow God' stuff, you haven't a single bit of fact to back that up. I find some of the best musicians are non-believers, because they are lead by pure and total freedom, and its MY BELIEF that good art can only be produced with NO CONSTRAINTS placed on it. If religion does anything, it places constraints on people. And that IS FACT.
 

aydee

Platinum Member
You think you described 'salvation' where others would say you described an acid trip.
Well, we all believe in different things don't we ? It would all be rather predictable and boring otherwise.

And yes, being on an acid trip ( without the acid ) is kinda what I'm after. To each his own.

And spare us PLEASE with your 'real musicians follow God' tripe., you haven't a single bit of fact to back that up. I find some of the best musicians are non-believers
The best musicians believe music is sacred.

Also I think you missed my point completely. The God I was taking about was a metaphor for music.

If religion does anything, it places constraints on people. And that IS FACT.
Not its not. Religion constrains some people and releases and empowers others.

There are no FACTS on this thread, only opinions and feelings. And I'm interested in sharing mine and reading about others ( till Bernhard shuts this thread down )
 
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zambizzi

Platinum Member
And yes, being on an acid trip ( without the acid ) is kinda what I'm after. To each his own.
Oh man, that's good to hear. I've been a sweating, babbling, crazy-eyed insomniac for years....I'm obviously knee-deep in nirvana!
 
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