Rawness

Mad About Drums

Pollyanna's Agent
Good raw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsnIdx8JSBY Jack's making the most of it though, as for Meg... raw and sexy, winning combination :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isCg_7udI_0 Very good, you can't miss that bass drum, lol, 26" or 28" ???

Bad raw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj7pDNDuoJ0 Oh my, ho my ....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y5cqcR3Bd0 It's bad enough, but good use of the monitor and the smoking effect :)

Good slick
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj54dNhJjgg Totally agree, it's right up my street :))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnpyCEUESEw Brilliant intro... and then Jaco, nice... although that during Brecker's solo it's not that slick, there's some raw energy there :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipvi_wJtmZs Superb singer!!! ...I always liked that song for that, using the vocal as an instrument :)

Bad Slick (the McDonalds of the music world)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHp2KgyQUFk Agreed, hence the nature and content of the clip to get more view of this video :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vJthZst5tQ&ob=av2e Sorry, I lasted 20 seconds...
These are very good exemples Polly, and from time to time, I'll have a Mc Donald's meal :)) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJ3ZM8FDBlg
 

HipshotPercussion

Senior Member
This band is about as modern as I get: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiGh6mIMVEs
I tried to get into this kind of sound while I was writing THE SILVER SURFER TV series. Thought it would put me in a "more cosmic place." Couldn't stand all the soft, lovey stuff though and ended up spending a year and a half writing to pre-THE WALL Pink Floyd. The energy and anger of DARK SIDE OF THE MOON really works for me.

We did end up with a strange and to me terrific (even though it was overblown as hell) pseudo-operatic theme song:

http://is.gd/sL76qJ

Couldn't play any drums on it, however. Except for the voices, the whole thing was synthed.
 

Mad About Drums

Pollyanna's Agent
I quite liked that big Adele hit but I find it hard to get into the plastic stuff. I'd like to be more open minded but the fact is I'm not haha
Agreed about Adele... But, forget the superficial, the image, the look, the clip... there's some good stuff out there despite the "fashion" elements and top 50 style of music, don't get me wrong, I'm not a "Chart music" fan, but there's some exeptions :)

I quite like these songs as far as slick females pop/rock tunes goes :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmiw7b5HoO4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsTLQ6JKedk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzfyCuPVpCY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSfWOT5JaRY&feature=fvst

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNLQpeXfXww&feature=related

This band is about as modern as I get: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiGh6mIMVEs
Yes, you posted other songs of them a while back, I like this band a lot, and that's because of you :))
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
I tried to get into this kind of sound while I was writing THE SILVER SURFER TV series. Thought it would put me in a "more cosmic place." Couldn't stand all the soft, lovey stuff though and ended up spending a year and a half writing to pre-THE WALL Pink Floyd. The energy and anger of DARK SIDE OF THE MOON really works for me.

We did end up with a strange and to me terrific (even though it was overblown as hell) pseudo-operatic theme song:

http://is.gd/sL76qJ

Couldn't play any drums on it, however. Except for the voices, the whole thing was synthed.
That was all rather Wagnerian (I'm guessing with my antlike knowledge of classical). I can't imagine chillout helping you write music like that - unless it irritated you enough ... :)

Doing film music must be amazing, such a creative field.


Agreed about Adele... But, forget the superficial, the image, the look, the clip... there's some good stuff out there despite the "fashion" elements and top 50 style of music, don't get me wrong, I'm not a "Chart music" fan, but there's some exeptions :)

I quite like these songs as far as slick females pop/rock tunes goes :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmiw7b5HoO4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsTLQ6JKedk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzfyCuPVpCY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSfWOT5JaRY&feature=fvst

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNLQpeXfXww&feature=related
Norah Jones - quite like her music without being wild about her. But if she had Dianne Krall's voice ...
Alicia Keys - I've heard worse but I'm generally not keen on plastic ballad ham vocals :)
Anastacia - love her voice, hate her lyrics, not thrilled about her music or production
Clare Maguire - yet another generic melisma-afflicted vocalist.
Stevie Nicks - I like her in FM but is overproduced. This song would sound awesome with a grittier production.

I prefer Fiona Apple to these chickadees (apart from Steve with FM): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgEu12FjeCo

Henri, looking at your above suggestions, as far as I can tell the only reason to make those songs slick is commercial. I think every one of those tunes would sound better with less electronics - be it reverb, gating, compression, programmed parts, extra musos. Take Deep Forest or Madison Avenue or Eno - they need electronics. These gals only need the gloss to pay for their own little Caribbean island. Their music needs more dirt.

How the hell can you sing about love and relationships and make it glossy with a straight face? How much romanticism do we need to be sold before we find out the truth - relationships at their best are messy and, at their worst, brutal. The glossiness, to me, reflects a cynical detachment from the reality, like advertising. I could go into a deeper conspiracy about us being encouraged to beget and raise more productive units to feed to the machine but I won't :)

If I ruled the world all female singers would be gritty with raw, gutsy backing and never, ever engage in overproduced dance tunes and simpering ballads showing how sexily sensitive they are (when they aren't hurling vases at their handlers backstage for mistakenly choosing gerberas instead of chrysanthemums)

OMG with this post think I've just made my old fartiness official!
 

Mad About Drums

Pollyanna's Agent
I prefer Fiona Apple to these chickadees (apart from Steve with FM): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgEu12FjeCo
I liked the song, but you choosed a live version :) There's plenty of "sexy" shots of Fiona in the offical Video, enough to make the males viewer to watch the entire clip, not there's anything wrong with it, it's actually well made and has an arty feel about it :)

The Anastacia clip is not that glossy (as far as the story goes), the music on the other hand it's a bit overproduced, I agree :)

In all fairness, any of the gals I've mentioned, sounds much rawer and more rocky live on stage, and often, the silly make-up and bubble gum vibes of the video clips are gone, is live music, with real musicians, although that sometimes, the show could also be over the top, as in the latest concert from Christina Aguilera live down under DVD, in comparison to the live in London 10 years ago, that one was rocking!!

Henri, looking at your above suggestions, as far as I can tell the only reason to make those songs slick is commercial. I think every one of those tunes would sound better with less electronics - be it reverb, gating, compression, programmed parts, extra musos. Take Deep Forest or Madison Avenue or Eno - they need electronics. These gals only need the gloss to pay for their own little Caribbean island. Their music needs more dirt.
Yes, as far as recordings is concerned, I agree, but as I mentioned above, some artists are already less "slicky" on stage, and there's a lot of female artists/bands that's not that much overproduced, Sheryll Crow, Alanis Morissette, Chrissie Hynde (Pretenders) or Annie Lennox, just to name a few, and they're as slick and as overproduced than the males counterpart in the music business :)

How the hell can you sing about love and relationships and make it glossy with a straight face? How much romanticism do we need to be sold before we find out the truth - relationships at their best are messy and, at their worst, brutal. The glossiness, to me, reflects a cynical detachment from the reality, like advertising. I could go into a deeper conspiracy about us being encouraged to beget and raise more productive units to feed to the machine but I won't :)
I agree totally with you there, however, you have to sell the "product" isn't it? Would it sell as well with a truefull image or clip? It could be very controversial, no? ...Yep, it's advertising alright...

If I ruled the world all female singers would be gritty with raw, gutsy backing and never, ever engage in overproduced dance tunes and simpering ballads showing how sexily sensitive they are (when they aren't hurling vases at their handlers backstage for mistakenly choosing gerberas instead of chrysanthemums)
Ha! I wish I could rule the world regarding musical issue sometimes, but it wouldn't be fair, isn't it? I'll make all female singers sounding like Rebecca Black :))

But I understand what you mean, more gritty with raw and spirited performances and recordings wouldn't go amiss :)

OMG with this post think I've just made my old fartiness official!
LOL...
 

HipshotPercussion

Senior Member
Polly,

I prefer Fiona Apple to these chickadees (apart from Steve with FM): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgEu12FjeCo
Can't remember the title, but somewhere in a box I've got a version of a Fiona Apple CD that she put out herself when her record company refused to. Later, they released their re-mixed version. But the original - the "raw" one - man!

That was all rather Wagnerian (I'm guessing with my antlike knowledge of classical). I can't imagine chillout helping you write music like that - unless it irritated you enough ... :)

Doing film music must be amazing, such a creative field.
I wasn't writing the music, I wrote all the scripts for the show. The music was done by the boss's brother-in-law (or best friend, or something...seriously).
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
I liked the song, but you choosed a live version :) There's plenty of "sexy" shots of Fiona in the offical Video, enough to make the males viewer to watch the entire clip, not there's anything wrong with it, it's actually well made and has an arty feel about it :)
Interestingly the studio version is more raw and gutsy than live: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFOzayDpWoI&ob=av2e


Can't remember the title, but somewhere in a box I've got a version of a Fiona Apple CD that she put out herself when her record company refused to. Later, they released their re-mixed version. But the original - the "raw" one - man!
Sounds logical, Hip. You can tell that her musical instincts are not glossy, like many others.


The Anastacia clip is not that glossy (as far as the story goes), the music on the other hand it's a bit overproduced, I agree :)
Always. I guess it means she makes squillions but has to live without my approval. It must be very hard for her :)


I agree totally with you there, however, you have to sell the "product" isn't it? Would it sell as well with a truefull image or clip? It could be very controversial, no? ...Yep, it's advertising alright...
Yes, make the mix hot so it's at least as loud as everything else. Reduce dynamics because the subtleties get missed over car noise or talk. Short punchy message with lots of repetition. Reduce overheads with automation. Clean up the rest with Pro Tools and add lots and lots of shine.

I preferred it when the biz was less canny. The suits worked it all out and took over, operating with the kind of increasing rationalist control found in the corporate world generally.

McMusic.
 

Deathmetalconga

Platinum Member
These days I find myself being attracted to more raw sounding music.

Not sure if it's an ageing thing or if raw sounds seem fresh given that most modern music is ultra slick.

Do you think rawness will make a comeback or will it be increasingly seen as retrograde, something from which to progress?

I can't offer an opinion, hence the question :)
I go through phases where I like music with more rawness, then music with more finesse, etc.

I don't know if rawness was ever out of fashion. Even traditionally raw music like country can be slickified and people will always want a less processed, more basic sound from their music a lot of the time. Some of the most popular songs and albums have been raw sounding.

Surprised, though. You have always seemed like such a smooth player.
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
I go through phases where I like music with more rawness, then music with more finesse, etc.

I don't know if rawness was ever out of fashion. Even traditionally raw music like country can be slickified and people will always want a less processed, more basic sound from their music a lot of the time. Some of the most popular songs and albums have been raw sounding.

Surprised, though. You have always seemed like such a smooth player.
Good point, DMC. I go through phases too. I'm still very keen on Steely Dan, Pink Floyd, Cinematic Orchestra etc. But another side of me laps up The White Stripes and other no-frills bands. The music just feels good.

I wish the pop and country people wouldn't "slickify" (good word :) their simple music that's best served raw IMO. It's like they're trying to make up for other lacks. It would be better if they embraced their goofyness instead of trying to mask it with production gloss.

Guess they've got to pay the rent - or buy gold plated pools - and people's ears are increasingly being trained to slick sounds, somewhat countered by music on the net.

I never think of myself as a smooth player. I find my playing a bit ploddy and wobbly and I'm grateful that people tend to listen to the overall song rather than hone in on the drummer. If someone says, "Hey, the drums are off" I can claim intentional rawness :)

How do you see your own playing in terms of raw / slick? There was some very cool raw drumming by you in your busking video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3MWZH1u8R4
 

paistemage

Senior Member
Steve Albini!1,000 Hurts!

"Kill her fucking kill her..."

Yeah his drummer is awesome. The whole band and productions is a rebellion against things that are overproduced!

I love what Albini did with Neurosis!

He also did something with Polly Jean Harvey....
 

Mad About Drums

Pollyanna's Agent
How do you see your own playing in terms of raw / slick? There was some very cool raw drumming by you in your busking video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3MWZH1u8R4
I can't tell you how DMC sees himself as a raw or slick player, but I can tell you that I listened to Martin's playing on his YT channel and found this little gem, it's not rock'n'roll... but girl ...it's deliciously raw, I love that song :))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRh0McPZrOw&feature=plcp&context=C442e7a5VDvjVQa1PpcFMVgAkdot7nyzv_TjWAecUKbS7oP6rwwIc=

@ DMC, why didn't you upload this wonderful song in the "Your Playing" section? I checked and I couldn't find it :)

This song is absolutely brilliant, and your playing is very inspiring, I must say, I'm impressed by your drumming, raw, yes, but so full of feel, I genuinely loved it :))
 

Deathmetalconga

Platinum Member
I can't tell you how DMC sees himself as a raw or slick player, but I can tell you that I listened to Martin's playing on his YT channel and found this little gem, it's not rock'n'roll... but girl ...it's deliciously raw, I love that song :))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRh0McPZrOw&feature=plcp&context=C442e7a5VDvjVQa1PpcFMVgAkdot7nyzv_TjWAecUKbS7oP6rwwIc=

@ DMC, why didn't you upload this wonderful song in the "Your Playing" section? I checked and I couldn't find it :)

This song is absolutely brilliant, and your playing is very inspiring, I must say, I'm impressed by your drumming, raw, yes, but so full of feel, I genuinely loved it :))
Wow, hey, thanks I am truly humbled. I will upload it there. Sometimes, you never know how good something is until someone else puts it in perspective. I have more stuff like that at www.bandmix.com/spiritdrummer
 

Deathmetalconga

Platinum Member
Good point, DMC. I go through phases too. I'm still very keen on Steely Dan, Pink Floyd, Cinematic Orchestra etc. But another side of me laps up The White Stripes and other no-frills bands. The music just feels good.

I wish the pop and country people wouldn't "slickify" (good word :) their simple music that's best served raw IMO. It's like they're trying to make up for other lacks. It would be better if they embraced their goofyness instead of trying to mask it with production gloss.

Guess they've got to pay the rent - or buy gold plated pools - and people's ears are increasingly being trained to slick sounds, somewhat countered bymusic on the net.

I never think of myself as a smooth player. I find my playing a bit ploddy and wobbly and I'm grateful that people tend to listen to the overall song rather than hone in on the drummer. If someone says, "Hey, the drums are off" I can claim intentional rawness :)

How do you see your own playing in terms of raw / slick? There was some very cool raw drumming by you in your busking video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3MWZH1u8R4
I think people will make raw music slick and slick music raw as part of the natural tendency to experiment and find new markets for their music.

I really dig drummers who can play with finesse and rawness at the same time. Bobby Jarzombek comes to mind. Very smooth, but also also very rough-edged and even violent in his playing.
 

unfunkyfooted

Silver Member
I can't tell you how DMC sees himself as a raw or slick player, but I can tell you that I listened to Martin's playing on his YT channel and found this little gem, it's not rock'n'roll... but girl ...it's deliciously raw, I love that song :))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRh0McPZrOw&feature=plcp&context=C442e7a5VDvjVQa1PpcFMVgAkdot7nyzv_TjWAecUKbS7oP6rwwIc=

@ DMC, why didn't you upload this wonderful song in the "Your Playing" section? I checked and I couldn't find it :)

This song is absolutely brilliant, and your playing is very inspiring, I must say, I'm impressed by your drumming, raw, yes, but so full of feel, I genuinely loved it :))
oh

my

god.

that's so real.

ditto.
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
I can't tell you how DMC sees himself as a raw or slick player, but I can tell you that I listened to Martin's playing on his YT channel and found this little gem, it's not rock'n'roll... but girl ...it's deliciously raw, I love that song :))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRh0McPZrOw&feature=plcp&context=C442e7a5VDvjVQa1PpcFMVgAkdot7nyzv_TjWAecUKbS7oP6rwwIc=
Agree Henri, it's quality. Only criticism is I think it deserved a more conclusive ending than a fade out.

Martin plays lots of exotic stuff with wide ranging influences - jazz, rock, gypsy, Jewish, Indian ... and the music always has some rawness, that tasty, organic feel.
 

Deathmetalconga

Platinum Member
Agree Henri, it's quality. Only criticism is I think it deserved a more conclusive ending than a fade out.

Martin plays lots of exotic stuff with wide ranging influences - jazz, rock, gypsy, Jewish, Indian ... and the music always has some rawness, that tasty, organic feel.
I am humbled ... thank you.
 

Mad About Drums

Pollyanna's Agent
Wow, hey, thanks I am truly humbled. I will upload it there. Sometimes, you never know how good something is until someone else puts it in perspective. I have more stuff like that at www.bandmix.com/spiritdrummer
Wow, DMC, I checked your spiritdrummer's page, your drumming is simply astonishing, and I very much like this music, thanks for the links, you've got yourself a new fan, lol.

Red Dragon reminds me of Steeleye Span, do you know them?
 
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