R hand technique, downward motion=downbeats bad idea?

No..
Where 'the hand falls' on the "2 or 4" or "1 and 3" get's flipped/
tempo
might not be relevant to what you're trying to describe
you say Rock/ was thinking/ what happens to in fast Jazz.

But I do like the word "Polarity-Shift"
I'm keeping that one/
You posted Stevie Wonder's I Was Made to Love Her in another thread. That is closer to the context I want to apply this in. Little sixteenths in the eight note accented hi hats.
 
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Here's an idea for you:

Count "1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &" out loud in a continuous cycle.

While doing that, play your pattern #1 starting on beat 1 and beat 3. So it'll end up being like this 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &...

Next, practice starting pattern #1 on the "& of 1" and the "& of 3." It'll end up being like this 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &...

Then, start on 2 and 4 (this is basically the jazz ride pattern). It'll be 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 1 &...

Finally, start on the "& of 2" and the "& of 4," which will give you 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 1 & 2...

When you can comfortably do all of that, start working on the exact same exercise using your pattern #2.

***After you can do everything described above on a practice pad or something, move it over to the hi-hat or ride cymbal. Now put the bass drum on 1 and 3, and use your free hand to play the snare on 2 and 4.

I have a feeling that a few weeks of this process will change your drumming in numerous ways. It'll improve your hand technique, your coordination, your ability to start phrases in different parts of the measure, your ability to hear accents in different parts of the measure, and so on, and so on.

If you try it, let us know how it goes after a few weeks. Have fun!
Getting some extended practice time this weekend. Trying your exercise, and also exaggerated motion with the jazz patern style and counting.
Although it is easier for me at this point to use the first patern ending with downward stroke. The time feel is better when ending with an upstroke. So I just better keep working at it. I gotta find my core's balance while doing it that way.

 
It's not going to be just a simple fix. It has to do with my balance and habits of moving within the bar. This easy feeling is where I need to get to.
It is ingrained in my playing. Even when I'm playing only the (rock & roll) &s on my R hand my whole balance is shifting as though I were smashing quarters with that limb (or 1 and 3 in jazz counting.)
I can do the thing in my R hand no problem. I just need to feel the beat better while I'm doing it as sixteenths in 4/4 rock & roll. Taking a break from working on it and getting some lovely spring sunshine now, then back at it
 
I think it starts from our very beginnings learning drumming unless we started before we started school. One. One is the start and we strike downward, the we add the bass; and now we have the entire half of the body and all the balance shifting in that direction. It has become unconscious and habitual. It will take time to overcome
 
Then there are reggae sorts of beats where all the upbeats get played and you need that downward motion for the strong beats.
It's a process. I appreciate all your input and helping me to talk through (type) my thoughts about it
 
I just need to feel the beat better while I'm doing it as sixteenths in 4/4 rock & roll.
I had a thought:

Start stomping out quarters with your foot. Now play the 3 notes. Is the quarter on the first note of the group of three, or the last note of the group of three?

Being that there are two ways to do the above, perhaps the off balance part you are experiencing comes from the grouping wanting to be played in a different space in relationship to the quarter note.
 
working on this is great for expanding my horizons! I'm developing finger technique and exploring the sonic textures that opens up. Plus the whole balance thing. I'm learning to feel downbeat in squeezing the stick! Or accent in squeezing the stick. It's a whole new world coming from wrist and arm movements. I think my R foot had already been doing similar stuff intuitively because of all the displaced bass drum in rock & roll.
Thanks for the exercises and listening inspiration.
For anyone coming new to this as I am, it's been about a month of not very structured or lengthy but focused practice to be able to begin to feel it. The jazz pattern, 4 + 1 = down tap up
 
working on this is great for expanding my horizons! I'm developing finger technique and exploring the sonic textures that opens up. Plus the whole balance thing. I'm learning to feel downbeat in squeezing the stick! Or accent in squeezing the stick. It's a whole new world coming from wrist and arm movements. I think my R foot had already been doing similar stuff intuitively because of all the displaced bass drum in rock & roll.
Thanks for the exercises and listening inspiration.
For anyone coming new to this as I am, it's been about a month of not very structured or lengthy but focused practice to be able to begin to feel it. The jazz pattern, 4 + 1 = down tap up
Down tap up is also the Moeller triplet, btw. And I don't think you should be squeezing the stick. A couple problems can occur when you squeeze the stick in an accent, 1) you might introduce tension into your playing, and 2) squeezing the stick doesn't allow it to vibrate, hence you may be choking the tone of your cymbals and drums.
 
Thanks Alex for the reminder to watch for excess tension. It is a finger stroke though, and the sound of a somewhat more dead stick on the downbeat is nice. I'm exercising at it on the pad and my hands are super strong from work. Just need to always let go the tension completely once the stroke is past
Also at faster tempos, regardless, fingers is going to be less tension than a fast upstroke freestroke combo
 
Well I am glad to hear you’re improving and it’s feeling good. Of course there is more than one way to skin a cat. But if you go back to that video of John Riley ripping that insanely fast cymbal pattern, I can assure you that what you are seeing there is 100% relaxed muscle action. If there is any tension in your playing at all, it cannot be sustained at these kinds of fast tempos. So as you increase the tempo of this tension and release method you are using, unfortunately the cymbal pattern will become more and more difficult to execute
 
quarter note = plus 400bpm (Stan Levey on Drums)

 
Of course, love the Riley clip - but it's just more focused on that really fast technique part (which is important)

But the overview - the why of it all - Man, this Bernie Clip is the total bomb.com

Love it!

The lingering thought for me is the degree that lots of folks start thinking of these patterns as rebound groups of threes - or even twos - at tempos that are way slower than approaching 240bpm. So much of what we play are not bounce/rebound things - they are just notes - or very controlled bounces.

In your "spang-a-lang" video example - something I've worked when needing to play an accent on a bounced (up) stroke is practicing open rolls - while accenting the second note of every pair. Even sticking like R l L r R l L r R l L r R l L r
 
BTW, for my friends helping me out, some eye candy. (ncd!)
My buddy borrowed my Bosphorus Antique that I dig and it's making money where it is. So, I got another (yay) turns out 80 g lighter and sweet

20230513_215451.jpg
 
Yes! That is the best explique lol


That's one set of ideas, that's not gospel. It's a good idea to think about the quarter note pulse with your ride rhythm. I saw another one of his videos-- he has a way of being over reductive the way he presents these things.

Here's Elvin Jones playing ~240, and his cymbal has a triplet feel, or close to it. He kind of covertly dismisses Elvin in both of those videos, actually.


And Philly Joe Jones:


It's not the cut and dried thing he describes.
 
That's one set of ideas, that's not gospel. It's a good idea to think about the quarter note pulse with your ride rhythm. I saw another one of his videos-- he has a way of being over reductive the way he presents these things.

Here's Elvin Jones playing ~240, and his cymbal has a triplet feel, or close to it. He kind of covertly dismisses Elvin in both of those videos, actually.


And Philly Joe Jones:


It's not the cut and dried thing he describes.
Bernie Dresel is a killer drummer, I saw him with the Brian Setzer Orchestra back in the 90's, and he burned it down. But yes, it is hard to figure out where he is going with all this...I mean I get bored and lose my concentration just trying to follow along! I agree with what you said on your website, the main thing is listening, practicing and playing, and overall trying to create a smoothness in your playing like Elvin and Philly do in these videos above.
So since this is the Technique Forum, I have to make one thing abundantly clear if I didn't already, tension has no place in professional drumming! Listen to the pros...it's all beautiful feel and smoothness...like you are floating on a cloud.
So if you think you have discovered something great by incorporating tension into your playing, you are kidding yourself! Tension is the opposite of feel, smoothness, groove, flow. Music is an expression of emotion, and tension disrupts the emotion by not allowing you to smoothly channel what you are hearing in your mind to your limbs, and ultimately to the drums. Nobody wants to listen to a tense drummer, it just doesn't sound or feel right
 
Regardless of where one places the skip note, i.e. - tight like Jimmy Cobb, in the middle like Philly Joe or open like Elvin - the reason they all swing is because each man's quarter-note pulse is super consistent and, thus, infectious. Personal taste, technique, and/or musical needs dictate how staccato or how legato one choses to play but the quarter-note is not negotiable.

For a number of years there's been a great drum camp summers in Croatia. Unfortunately, that's not happening this year but I will be doing a jazz camp there this summer with a great faculty and lots of opportunities to play, learn from and just hang with great players. Please check it out. Here's the info:
 

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