Quantizing drums

The drums on Dire Straits first album were almost too good to be true . Were they fiddled with ?

Same with Free's ' Fire and Water ' album .

Geoff Emerick has written a fascinating account of how things were recorded in the beginning when all you had were instincts ,imagination and the consequent experience to build on.Can those be quantisized ? Evidently we're led to believe that it can .
 
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ravenson said:
The drums on Dire Straits first album were almost to good to be true ? Were they fiddled with ?
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Almost certainly not. Early Straits sounds pretty loose and organic to me. I've heard tracks speeding up.
The last two albums (Brothers In Arms, On Every Street, were tracked with clicks and designed to have perfect time).
 
drummingman said:
So one of the members of my band contacted a local studio today trying to get information about recording. The engineer that he talked to almost insisted that the drums be quantized when he did a session. He went on to tell my band member how it did not affect the feel of the drums to quantize them (which I think is total nonsense). This basically caused me to have to have an argument/conversation with my band member all evening through text trying to explain to him that quantizing the drums is just gonna do nothing but make the songs sound sterile. Because the engineer told him that everybody does that now I had to explain to him that just because everybody does, it doesn’t mean it’s the best for the songs and the music.

When we started the band, I said up front that I did not want to do any kind of quantizing or editing in the studio, but I wanted it to be all natural (and my band member agreed with me, but was definitely waffling on that today). I have good time, but I’m human and that does create a little bit of push and pull at times. I honestly think this adds life to the music to where it doesn’t sound like a homogenized mass produce product. I try to choose my battles in a band, but quantizing is something that I’ve had to dig my heels in and insist on not doing.

After all the back-and-forth with my band member today, he finally ended up agreeing with me that not quantizing is best for the music after thinking about it a bit more. But for a while there the engineer had him pretty much convinced that we couldn’t get a great sounding album unless we were to slap the drums to a grid and I had to unconvince him and explain to him that just because some guy in a studio says we should do something doesn’t mean that we should (I’ve definitely been down that road before). But my band member is young and still learning so I’m TRYING to be patient with him even when he gets hotheaded lol! Just as a sidenote, I haven’t worked with this engineer at all, and he even commented to my band member that my time was good from the stuff that he heard that we’ve already done. But he basically said it wasn’t “perfect” and he would have edited some things. To someone who has quantized everything, anything that is natural is going to sound wrong to him. Honestly he might as well just be listening to drum machines all day.

Anybody else had any similar experiences with band members and engineers? If so how did you deal with it and what was the outcome for you?
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If I was the one paying for the studio time, the engineer would have to do whatever I tell him to do, or I'd go somewhere else. If the band was paying for it, then we would decide ahead of time what we wanted and go with that or we would go somewhere else as well. If someone else is paying for the studio time and I'm just a hired hand, then do whatever.

With that said, one time I played on a project for a local church. I didn't charge them anything; I just volunteered. I recorded a set of e-drums, and I noticed that there was no cymbal sound coming through my head, but the "engineer" said that he was getting signal, and he was going to replace all of the drum sounds anyways, so essentially I was just hitting "targets" when I played. No problem.

Well, when the project was released, I noticed two things: One, he had taken one small phrase of each song and just looped it. When I listened to it, my first impression was "That's not me." It sounded bad. The next thing I noticed? No cymbals. Nope, not a one. They already had CDs pressed and everything. I told the folks in charge that I wish that my name could be taken off of the project, but it was too late. I swore at that point that if I ever lent my services to them again that I not be mentioned anywhere.
 
PorkPieGuy said:
If I was the one paying for the studio time, the engineer would have to do whatever I tell him to do, or I'd go somewhere else.
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You have to be 100% sure you are right.
I always take on board suggestions, especially if they are from someone more expert than me, also divorced from any bias (like me desperately wanting to play my drums).
I've asked for and received advice from studio engineers my whole career and always been the better for it. Of course if someone wants to blanket quantise me and replace all the sounds I'd probably not work with them.
 
Remember: you are flipping the bill so get what you want....but be careful...you will get what you want!

Maybe have a listen to before/after?..then select?...and maybe different levels/placement of quantization(word?).
 
I guess it’s just hard for me to understand how somebody would want the drums to be quantized (or any instrument they play for that matter). At that point when things are quantized, you’re not really playing your instrument on the recording. You might as well just program everything because it’s not really you playing the parts. I see it as an integrity thing. It would be hard for me to listen to an album that was quantized knowing that it’s not really me that’s doing the performance, but a computerized version of my parts.

Also, considering that all the instruments can be quantized, why is it only the drummer’s are the ones that are routinely getting quantized and nobody else is? I know that people will say it’s because the drums are the foundation and have to be solid. For me, that’s more incentive to actually be a better drummer if I can’t play a part well. Again, it’s about musical integrity to me. But also, I think about the fact that other instrumentalists don’t have to deal with as much pressure of somebody wanting to computerize their parts. I think if that happened more often to guitar players and bass players they may understand why drummers have such an issue with it.
 
In modern music a lot of instruments are being quantised (not just drummers). Nearly all the instrumentation in the top 40 charts is programmed sounds. That's another reason why drummers are being edited, so our playing sits more neatly with all the other perfectly timed, programmed parts on the record.
Why bother with a drummer. First it's quicker. It takes an age to programmed a machine or collection of samples to sound and feel like a drummer. Secondly, even if the feel is retimed, perfected, all the nuance and dynamic of a human drummer adds a lot of value.
 
drummingman said:
I think if that happened more often to guitar players and bass players they may understand why drummers have such an issue with it.
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In modern music there aren't many bass or guitar parts.
Also, the drums are the foundation of any record. Once the foundation is perfected, it is less critical whether the timing of overdubs is perfected.
the loudest things in many modern mixes are the bass drum and lead vocal.
 
I rather like the sound of a real kit, with a real drummer, that has been quantized. If the alternative is an electronic track, quantize away.
 
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drummingman said:
I guess it’s just hard for me to understand how somebody would want the drums to be quantized (or any instrument they play for that matter). At that point when things are quantized, you’re not really playing your instrument on the recording. You might as well just program everything because it’s not really you playing the parts. I see it as an integrity thing. It would be hard for me to listen to an album that was quantized knowing that it’s not really me that’s doing the performance, but a computerized version of my parts.

Also, considering that all the instruments can be quantized, why is it only the drummer’s are the ones that are routinely getting quantized and nobody else is? I know that people will say it’s because the drums are the foundation and have to be solid. For me, that’s more incentive to actually be a better drummer if I can’t play a part well. Again, it’s about musical integrity to me. But also, I think about the fact that other instrumentalists don’t have to deal with as much pressure of somebody wanting to computerize their parts. I think if that happened more often to guitar players and bass players they may understand why drummers have such an issue with it.
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It costs less to get a product with fewer hours in a contracted studio(usually rented by time slice) if you post production 'fix' things that are impediments to a sale.

Fewer listeners are put off by bass or guitar being 'organic' than drums.

Money drives it all...not art. Never loose sight of that when you expect to be paid.
 
Otto said:
Fewer listeners are put off by bass or guitar being 'organic' than drums.

Money drives it all...not art. Never loose sight of that when you expect to be paid.
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'Art' is also driven by what people expect to hear. I know people who make virtually no money from their music, but they still want to start their song with very solid, in time rhythm track.
It kind of drives me nuts that every aspect of professional music people think they don't like is blamed on 'money'.
Do you think Steely Dan were motivated by creative perfection or money?
 
Chris Whitten said:
'Art' is also driven by what people expect to hear. I know people who make virtually no money from their music, but they still want to start their song with very solid, in time rhythm track.
It kind of drives me nuts that every aspect of professional music people think they don't like is blamed on 'money'.
Do you think Steely Dan were motivated by creative perfection or money?
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Its both they were motivated by...but only one of the 2 gives freedom to do the other...and its not art paying rent.

Take resource management (within reason) out of the equation and the soundscape is very different....its not objects you have from $...its the reduced attention split.
 
Right, so when established artists no longer need to worry about a roof over their head, and whether they can eat that week, they still prefer to have their music as close to perfect as possible.
 
:rolleyes:

There is no arguing that greater pooled resources give greater freedom.

interesting troll like feel happening here.

I bet it is just me having a bad day!
 
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