push-pull (open-close) technique

I watched tens of videos on youtube on push-pull. I practised for quite some time (let's say couple of weeks). I try it, take videos and it looks like I do the correct the motions. But somehow it does not get any faster than I would play with my "normal" finger technique. In terms of speed and precision, I can get nowhere close to the youtube videos I watched.

Does it mean that I am doing something "invisible" wrong, or do the laws of physics apply differently for me? Or maybe my wrist's physiology is different???
I don't know what kind of magic is going on there.

How long did it take for you to master it, I mean until you become able to play with such speed and cleanness that you would not reach with your "normal" technique?
 

Push pull stroke

Platinum Member
It took me more like years to get to the point where I could use it at a gig, although I would go months without practicing or playing during that time.

Post a video of yourself using it, both slow and fast. We can critique it
 

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
Took me about a minute to get the hang of how it works. Took me years to be able to use it comfortably while playing. Didn't even really know I was doing it until I was watching my hands one day.

Stick with it, it will come.
 

oldskoolsoul

Silver Member
..Cemguvener said he didn't improve speed after a couple weeks, not that he expected to master it in that time..

..I practised for quite some time (let's say couple of weeks). I try it, take videos and it looks like I do the correct the motions. But somehow it does not get any faster than I would play with my "normal" finger technique..

..How long did it take for you to master it, I mean until you become able to play with such speed and cleanness that you would not reach with your "normal" technique?..

To me there is not a word Spanish there..

Bottom line is, that practicing a few weeks is in no way a decent period of time to learn anything properly regarding playing drums, especially when learning new techniques..
 

TMe

Senior Member
For me, this is a left brain/right brain thing.

I practice technique using my left brain, meaning I'm analytical, use exaggerated form, do repetitive drills, etc.

Then when I play, I try to be a right-brain guy, forget all about that stuff, and do whatever feels right.

Over time (months and years) some of the technique I've been practicing analytically starts to creep into my playing through an intuitive process.

I like to think I'm not stupid, I'm just slow. I've never practiced anything for a few weeks and seen much of a difference.
 

Odd-Arne Oseberg

Platinum Member
There are always little things with technique and grip and such, but without up-close footage or seeing things in person it's hard. We're all different, so technique is a concept, not and exact science from person to person.

But yeah, you haven't been working on it long.

After 10 years I'd say I'm still working on it and if I don't need to play fast one handed 16ths or work on other stuff I'll often have to freshen up a little bit. Can't stay om top with everything while constantly learning new things all the time. It's what's needed or most interesting right now.
 
To me there is not a word Spanish there..

Bottom line is, that practicing a few weeks is in no way a decent period of time to learn anything properly regarding playing drums, especially when learning new techniques..
No, it seems you misunderstood the question.

Cemguvener said he didn't improve speed after a couple weeks, not that he expected to master it in that time..
Absolutely right. I was not expecting to master it in a couple of weeks but expecting to see at least a slight bit of difference. Not seeing any change, I just wondered how long it normally takes for most people. That's all.
 

oldskoolsoul

Silver Member
..No, it seems you misunderstood the question..

..I was not expecting to master it in a couple of weeks but expecting to see at least a slight bit of difference. Not seeing any change, I just wondered how long it normally takes for most people. That's all..

Then maybe we just read things different, but to me that sounds very different than your initial question..

But, a slight bit of difference with what exactly..?

I have no idea about your current level, but lets say at this moment you play easily one handed 16th's at 115 BPM..Then now you expected to be able to play them with push/pull after a few weeks easily at 120 BPM..?

Or, a slight bit of difference with executing the motions better..?

And, to avoid any other misunderstanding, are you learning push/pull out of German grip or French grip..?

Because, if you start from German grip, you might want to check the principles of Low-Moeller too..
 
Then maybe we just read things different, but to me that sounds very different than your initial question..

But, a slight bit of difference with what exactly..?

I have no idea about your current level, but lets say at this moment you play easily one handed 16th's at 115 BPM..Then now you expected to be able to play them with push/pull after a few weeks easily at 120 BPM..?

Or, a slight bit of difference with executing the motions better..?

And, to avoid any other misunderstanding, are you learning push/pull out of German grip or French grip..?

Because, if you start from German grip, you might want to check the principles of Low-Moeller too..
Thanks for the low-moeller tip, I use german grip. But I think I will stick to practising push pull for the moment.
I asked a simple question and alteady got some very useful answers related to what to expect from practising this technique. I don't intend to get into a discussion about what I meant. Just assume what you interpret is correct, fine by me.
 

oldskoolsoul

Silver Member
..Thanks for the low-moeller tip, I use german grip. But I think I will stick to practising push pull for the moment..

The idea is, that if you play German grip and you bring back a Low-Moeller stroke to only 1 controlled rebound (instead of 2 or 3), basically you have push/pull technique with German grip..

Thats why i mentioned that..
 

Push pull stroke

Platinum Member
The idea is, that if you play German grip and you bring back a Low-Moeller stroke to only 1 controlled rebound (instead of 2 or 3), basically you have push/pull technique with German grip..

Thats why i mentioned that..
Moeller doesn’t have open-close that I’m aware of, unless I have misunderstood it. If you’re just talking about putting the whip forward into the wrist instead of arm, then yes, that’s push-pull, although I don’t think Moeller ever taught that.
 

Dr_Watso

Platinum Member
Moeller doesn’t have open-close that I’m aware of, unless I have misunderstood it. If you’re just talking about putting the whip forward into the wrist instead of arm, then yes, that’s push-pull, although I don’t think Moeller ever taught that.
I've already been over this with him and trust me when I say you're not going to be able to change his mind on the subject. Agreeing to disagree is the only path.
 

oldskoolsoul

Silver Member
..I've already been over this with him and trust me when I say you're not going to be able to change his mind on the subject. Agreeing to disagree is the only path..

As far as i know, i was not at all discussing or arguing anything with Push pull stroke..



Push pull stroke said:
..If you’re just talking about putting the whip forward into the wrist instead of arm, then yes, that’s push-pull, although I don’t think Moeller ever taught that..

Those last words i never claimed and yes, the first part is a big part of what i am speaking about..

I am out of the discussion btw..

Like i said before, bottom line is to keep practicing, check what Mayer says about the subject (including a big Low-Moeller reference) and everything will be ok..!
 
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How did it come to Moeller? Is it some kind of prerequisit before practising push-pull? If it's the same thing then why should I practise Moeller, if not...well then again, why should I practise Moeller?

oldskoolsoul, I appreciate your willingness to help, but please do not overinterpret questions or get into discussions just for the sake of arguments.

Apart from that. does anybody have practical tips on how to practise push-pull?
 
How did it come to Moeller? Is it some kind of prerequisit before practising push-pull? If it's the same thing then why should I practise Moeller, if not...well then again, why should I practise Moeller?

oldskoolsoul, I appreciate your willingness to help, but please do not overinterpret questions or get into discussions just for the sake of arguments.

Apart from that. does anybody have practical tips on how to practise push-pull?
 

Push pull stroke

Platinum Member
How did it come to Moeller? Is it some kind of prerequisit before practising push-pull? If it's the same thing then why should I practise Moeller, if not...well then again, why should I practise Moeller?

oldskoolsoul, I appreciate your willingness to help, but please do not overinterpret questions or get into discussions just for the sake of arguments.

Apart from that. does anybody have practical tips on how to practise push-pull?
Moeller is a good place to start because large motions are easier to master than small ones. Push-pull is, as he pointed out, essentially Moeller, except the wrist is doing the throw instead of the whole arm.

As far as ways to practice push-pull, here are some good ones—

1. Practice extremely slowly, on a pillow.
2. Practice downbeat-accented triplets, so the downstroke is the downbeat on one group of 3 notes, then the upstroke gets the downbeat on the next group of 3 notes.
3. Move between hats, toms, and snare while keeping up a steady stream of push-pull notes. Start REALLY slow with this.
4. Do 8 notes (or 4, or 16) of alternating single strokes with push-pull, then immediately, with no break in between, do the same number of notes with double strokes, also using push pull. Try to make the doubles and singles sound the same. This is hard, start slowly. (I adapted this one from Joe Morello)
 
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