Push pull and weak finger control.

JJKK

Member
Ok. I have weak fingers and finger control. I've mostly played with wrists and my grip has loosened over the years (so I haven't gotten injured) and I learned to use some fingers in my playing but I'm very far off the idealistic image of me playing blast beats with my fingers at up to 260-270 bpm (or 300!).

Push-pull is a technique my brother tried teaching me one evening, and I fumbled through the lesson. I've since signed up to an online school, and I found a comprehensive lesson on the technique. I'm slowly trying to learn the motions and concepts behind the movement.

The thing is, my fingers are so weak they lack control (I'm doing 80bpm using a finger at a time, and trying to keep on the click) and every time I train my fingers it feels like it will take years of work.

Do I need good finger control with push-pull, or does it teach me better finger control? How much time does training the fingers take (and why do I suck so much at it)?
 
Push pull and finger control are slightly different things. If you're aiming for blast beats, you want fingers, not push pull. Push pull is a technique primarily used for double strokes and diddles. Yes, players like Jojo (above) can maintain a one-handed roll with a push pull motion, but that is more a demonstration of concept than anything practical.

Watch the top blast beat players, if that's your thing, and notice the single stroke motion. Whether they play French or German, the fulcrum holds the stick in place and the middle, ring, and little fingers bounce the stick like a basketball.

Push pull, as I said, is a motion which essentially gets you two strokes for one motion, one stroke on the push and a second on the pull back to the starting point. It is an important motion to understand with regards to double strokes and diddles, but not directly relevant to blast beats and single strokes. I'd recommend a few sessions with a teacher knowledgeable about such things to make sure your understanding is clear before you start spending hours practising things.
 
Push pull and finger control are slightly different things. If you're aiming for blast beats, you want fingers, not push pull. Push pull is a technique primarily used for double strokes and diddles. Yes, players like Jojo (above) can maintain a one-handed roll with a push pull motion, but that is more a demonstration of concept than anything practical.

Watch the top blast beat players, if that's your thing, and notice the single stroke motion. Whether they play French or German, the fulcrum holds the stick in place and the middle, ring, and little fingers bounce the stick like a basketball.

Push pull, as I said, is a motion which essentially gets you two strokes for one motion, one stroke on the push and a second on the pull back to the starting point. It is an important motion to understand with regards to double strokes and diddles, but not directly relevant to blast beats and single strokes. I'd recommend a few sessions with a teacher knowledgeable about such things to make sure your understanding is clear before you start spending hours practising things.
I did start working on my fingers a while back (last year), but I've seen videos where the push-pull is used in blast beats (snare hand). I figured that would be the "best" motion to learn since it looks so easy.

I did a finger control exercise just today for about 20 minutes.
 
From my past experience and what others have said, the fingers are most easily injured if exercised “excessively.” IMO, don’t make finger exercises your primary goal right now. Work more heavily on other things. Finger exercises should be something that you ease into since it sounds like they have never been built up. Definitely work on them but don’t think you can jump into an exercise routine and work them hard without potentially hurting yourself. Only start with a minute and try them maybe every other day until you feel no pain or strains.

I like this Jojo Mayer exercise as a way to feel where your fingers may have some things (like mobility issues) that are holding them back. But, these shouldn’t be done every day IMO until you feel nothing straining. I’m not a medical professional. But, I think movement is good and with time, these movements become comfortable and you can hopefully use them more often.

Here is someone demonstrating a simple one.
I have used finger exercises in the past, but only today I started doing 8th notes (at 75bpm) and working on controlling the stick at this higher speed.
 
I did start working on my fingers a while back (last year), but I've seen videos where the push-pull is used in blast beats (snare hand). I figured that would be the "best" motion to learn since it looks so easy.

I did a finger control exercise just today for about 20 minutes.

I would urge caution here. Firstly I have never seen it used by the top death metal drummers, and secondly I would dispute that it’s easier.

In my metal days (which are long behind me now) push pull wasn’t even a thing anyone spoke about. We would sit there for an hour at a time playing a blast beat to a click, right foot to left hand, and the hand would have to figure it out itself. Once you started analysing what your own hand was doing, you might go “oh, it’s using just the fingers now.”

honestly, the best way to get good at blast beats is to play blast beats. If you’re trying to get better at sprinting, don’t do press ups, sprint! Your hands will work out the most ergonomic and economic motion through necessity. Take it very slowly and stay relaxed, then repeat, repeat, repeat.
 
I would urge caution here. Firstly I have never seen it used by the top death metal drummers, and secondly I would dispute that it’s easier.

In my metal days (which are long behind me now) push pull wasn’t even a thing anyone spoke about. We would sit there for an hour at a time playing a blast beat to a click, right foot to left hand, and the hand would have to figure it out itself. Once you started analysing what your own hand was doing, you might go “oh, it’s using just the fingers now.”

honestly, the best way to get good at blast beats is to play blast beats. If you’re trying to get better at sprinting, don’t do press ups, sprint! Your hands will work out the most ergonomic and economic motion through necessity. Take it very slowly and stay relaxed, then repeat, repeat, repeat.

Sounds reasonable.
 
You need to work on singles, both individual hands and together. Blast beats are done with either hand leading on the snare. If you are right hand snare, your left is playing cymbals and accents. If you are left hand snare, your right hand is playing cymbals and accents.

Set your metronome to 5bpm below your comfortable limit and pad it out. Push yourself. You dont get faster by playing slow in this instance, and you wont see "triple gains for half the work" or none of that nonsense.

You are looking for the bounce. Once you can control the bounce, you can speed up the bounce.
 
The one thing being a mechanic for 40+ years has benefitted: my finger strength is bananas from turning bolts. I barely use a wrist motion to play unless I'm trying to absolutely bludgeon the snare for that gunshot sound to be heard a mile off.
I'm not a metal player anymore (not that I was ever any good) but I might try a blast just to see how it goes.
This thread has piqued my curiosity.
 
The one thing being a mechanic for 40+ years has benefitted: my finger strength is bananas from turning bolts. I barely use a wrist motion to play unless I'm trying to absolutely bludgeon the snare for that gunshot sound to be heard a mile off.
I'm not a metal player anymore (not that I was ever any good) but I might try a blast just to see how it goes.
This thread has piqued my curiosity.

I suspect that your finger speed would be really slow, though. Strength and speed are not the same.
 
I suspect that your finger speed would be really slow, though. Strength and speed are not the same.
You would think so, but not the case. I built speed and dexterity teaching myself piano because my parents bought one for my sister, which she used for a month and gave up.
 
You would think so, but not the case. I built speed and dexterity teaching myself piano because my parents bought one for my sister, which she used for a month and gave up.

The motion isn’t the same, but it won’t hurt. I honestly don’t know of anything that builds drumming speed with sticks, except maybe hand drumming a little. It’s just its own thing, AFAIK
 
The motion isn’t the same, but it won’t hurt. I honestly don’t know of anything that builds drumming speed with sticks, except maybe hand drumming a little. It’s just its own thing, AFAIK

Yeah I agree.

Do you generally subscribe to slow practice to build speed through control and correct motion, or the approach that says "push it and feel the burn"?
 
Yeah I agree.

Do you generally subscribe to slow practice to build speed through control and correct motion, or the approach that says "push it and feel the burn"?

Mostly slow practice. When technique is correct, you don’t need to “feel the burn”. Look at Tom Grosset, he’s totally calm and still when he beat the WFD record. Same with the guy that set the paradiddles record.
 
Maybe try learning some rudimental snare solos first. Sometimes the key to doing techniques like that is just building up general dexterity and strength in your hands. Spending hours practicing the solos in the Pratt book did (and still does) wonders for all aspects of my kit playing. My push-pull and uptempo ride playing have gotten much better, for example. Good luck.
 
Maybe try learning some rudimental snare solos first. Sometimes the key to doing techniques like that is just building up general dexterity and strength in your hands. Spending hours practicing the solos in the Pratt book did (and still does) wonders for all aspects of my kit playing. My push-pull and uptempo ride playing have gotten much better, for example. Good luck.

Which book is it (writer and title)? I haven't looked into books for learning at all.
 
There are a few really good ones:

John Pratt: 14 Modern Contest Solos for Snare Drum
Wilcoxon: Rudimental Swing Solos for the Advanced Drummer

You could also check out:
The All American Drummer (Wilcoxon)
12 Etudes (Delecluse) (Orchestral style, very challenging if you're unfamiliar)

Not really an advanced drummer. What can a newbie learn from these? I'm not exactly a newbie but I try to approach everything from a newbie perspective, especially drumming.
 
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