Pre-"grid" musicianship

Mongrel

Silver Member
Today was the first time I heard that song.


Anyway i don´t understand how did he pay 600 dollars for one song if 8 years later, in Germany (1985) i did a demo in a studio, with a trio (never played before with those guys), recorded 3 songs and the price was 25 Marks. (about 10 dollars then, I think). The rate of the studio was 5 marks the hour. (5 x 5 hours=25), most of the time was invested in puting cables, etc.

Now, you havent answered me why was so expensive, because I undertand you were mentioning it because it was very expensive, right?

So, some things that occured to me were: the drummer had a problem to play the 1 on the rim in that 3/4
Or the 2 and 3 (again in the rim) on the bridge....anyway I thought that some one could iluminate me...
No... It was a full album and noted for it's stripped down production and lack of "arrangements". It primarily consisted of acoustic guitar, piano and drums.

It tore the lid off the Nashville "country scene" and was a huge commercial success-because it was done completely outside the constraints of what was happening in Nashville at the time, and hit #1 on Billboard's Country Album chart for 1975.

That album, "The Red Headed Stranger" is credited by many artists for breaking free of the strict corporate "rules of the game" that had been holding back a lot of very talented artists who couldn't break through using normal channels...

Ironically, this example fits perfectly into this discussion of clicks and grids on a commercially successful album-"On March 11, 1976, it was certified gold by the Recording Industry Association of America, and on November 21, 1986, it was certified double-platinum.[28] " (Wikipedia)

Doubly ironic-it features scaled back production that the original post's Dusty Springfield example was panned for....

Go figure...lol.
 

Alex Sanguinetti

Silver Member
For every recording that becomes a commercial success, how many recordings do you think were made that were not successful? More to the point, how many recordings were made that were never intended for mass consumption?
Do you mean that recording was made for musicians consumption?
 

danondrums

Well-known member
This discussion sure gets wild when you bring in garage band rockers and avant garde recordings that nobody listens to and the creators are so poor they can't afford food.

The original point holds true to there is a much greater emphasis on click track playing today than ever before and "the grid" as they say is just bringing the click level accuracy to all of the subdivisions. Music meant for mass consumption is mostly done this way as the focus is on post-performance production and this is all much easier with notes that fall perfectly in time.

The sad aspect of this is that less money flows to the talented and creative musicians with this model and more flows to the corporate folk and thus the truly inspiring musicians of today have a much quieter voice than in years past. In the current model you'll never have a rebellious John Lennon to have a strong voice for peace because like in all of corporate America the managers are looking for obedient workers instead of inspired and independent souls. The mass consumption music of decades ago had an artistic rebelliousness to it that you felt in the heart. One must dig deep to find that music these days.
 
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oldskoolsoul

Silver Member
..That chart merely indicates that your statement is incorrect, with ACTUAL DATA to back it up..

The advantage of a written forum like this, is that things can easily be read back..

Everything that i wrote in this thread after my reply regarding the production of the Dusty Springfield song, was a reaction to your statement that most music is recorded without a click..

My reaction to that, was that by far most music worldwide is still recorded without a click..

The chart that you posted is not backing up anything at all, but just a kinda cheap debating technique to throw in some "impressive" numbers that are not related at all to what the discussion was about..

If your statement from the beginning would have been that most commercial (most sold) music is recorded nowadays with a click, then you are probably right and i would never have reacted to that..

But that was not what we were discussing about, at least i was not (which you can see with the examples i posted and spoke about)..

If all the examples of music that i gave and spoke about (and that was only a tip of the iceberg) are not mattering to you, then just say that, instead of posting non-discussion-related numbers..

Then at least the discussions stays clean and everyone knows what the discussion is about..
 

CommanderRoss

Silver Member
All of this is great.
After all this discussion, I don't know what the OP meant by "Pre-Grid"?
What's a "grid" as far as drumming goes?
 

Mongrel

Silver Member
The advantage of a written forum like this, is that things can easily be read back..

Everything that i wrote in this thread after my reply regarding the production of the Dusty Springfield song, was a reaction to your statement that most music is recorded without a click..

My reaction to that, was that by far most music worldwide is still recorded without a click..

The chart that you posted is not backing up anything at all, but just a kinda cheap debating technique to throw in some "impressive" numbers that are not related at all to what the discussion was about..

If your statement from the beginning would have been that most commercial (most sold) music is recorded nowadays with a click, then you are probably right and i would never have reacted to that..

But that was not what we were discussing about, at least i was not (which you can see with the examples i posted and spoke about)..

If all the examples of music that i gave and spoke about (and that was only a tip of the iceberg) are not mattering to you, then just say that, instead of posting non-discussion-related numbers..

Then at least the discussions stays clean and everyone knows what the discussion is about..
As an observer...

It was crystal clear to me what notvinnie (and Bermuda by the way) meant, as the original example was a commercially produced song, putting the context in the commercial music realm and not in the realm of "all recorded music produced world-wide". No one was referring to anything about that until you and Alex interjected the idea that notvinnie was "wrong" because he failed to recognize any and every serious, and semi-serious recording done without a click or on a grid in his statement.

Even after he clarified his position as reflecting commercially produced music you are still holding his feet to the fire over some semantics about what is essentially, at least at this point in time, grass roots recordings being made by artists unrecognizable by the greater public.

When notvinnie produces numbers relative to sales to "prove" the volume and popularity of commercial work being produced worldwide you blow it off as a cheap parlor trick....lol.

The bottom line is that for studio musicians...successful studio musicians the norm is to utilize clicks and grids. THAT is the norm, as Bermuda, CPhoto, notvinnie, and others have attested to.

While the indie recording movement is growing the context of the discussion was never music produced "outside of the box" as far as I can tell from the op and other posts, but the music that could be found on top 40 charts LIKE the Dusty Springfield tune.

Lastly, while a group recording in their own basement studio may not be using a click\grid system the studio drummer who plays for multiple artists in a major studio better have his act together when it comes to playing with one-like Bermuda already said.

The deeper irony is that every basement "artist" I know of IS using a click and running their stuff through some level of grid, for precisely the same reasons notvinnie (and others) have already said multiple times. It makes over-dubbing easier and cleans the recordings up.

I am all about "sticking it to the (corporate) man (studio) by starting your own studio and playing sans clicks.... But I think it would be safe to say that that is not the typical scenario in the comercially successful music (pop, rock, country, smooth jazz lol, and hip-hop) recordings being made today.

The best point that I can take away from what you and Alex have said, is that there is a tremendous amount of GREAT music being produced off the well trod path of "top 40" that does breathe and is alive just like in the "old days". It doesn't even take that much effort to find it, and is well worth the effort.

THAT point is what brings hope to the OP's longing for "real" music, and is a more helpful direction than starting a pissing match over who wins the "most accurate statement in the thread" trophy.

Anyway....I'll end the book there as I have grown tired of even my own contribution to this thing....lol.
 
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oldskoolsoul

Silver Member
..but the music that could be found on top 40 charts LIKE the Dusty Springfield tune..

Look, Mongrel, as always in a discussion everyone has his own truth..

The music that you categorize as more or less not that important (hope thats symanticly allowed to say like that) is among the most high aclaimed music released in the past 15 years..

I know, not for you and i also know you could not care less..

Like i said in my previous reply, if the context of this thread is only commercial crap, i would not even have bothered to reply at all..

And, just to nitpick a little (i learn quickly..lol), like i allready said in my first reply in this thread, that Dusty Springfield song is just a sort of leftover song from her, a single-only release that made nothing at all and musically a pretty bad example of the whole 'grid' theory..

And since you also seem to be a fan of numbers (and to just nitpick a little more..lol):

That hugely important song we all seem mandatory to only refer to, reached the amazing place of 110 in the US Billboard (not top 40) and in basically the complete rest of the world no listing at all..

But really, like i allready said, not important and i have basically no idea at all why i waste any time writing this..

But, to finish in proper "on-topic style" of the thread, i will still click the reply button..lol..(i know, very bad joke..)

All the best and have a nice time..!:)
 
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Mongrel

Silver Member
Look, Mongrel, as always in a discussion everyone has his own truth..

The music that you categorize as more or less not that important (hope thats symanticly allowed to say like that) is among the most high aclaimed music released in the past 15 years..

I know, not for you and i also know you could not care less..

Like i said in my previous reply, if the context of this thread is only commercial crap, i would not even have bothered to reply at all..

And, just to nitpick a little (i learn quickly..lol), like i allready said in my first reply in this thread, that Dusty Springfield song is just a sort of leftover song from her, a single-only release that made nothing at all and musically a pretty bad example of the whole 'grid' theory..

And since you also seem to be a fan of numbers (and to just nitpick a little more..lol):

That hugely important song we all seem mandatory to only refer to, reached the amazing place of 110 in the US Billboard (not top 40) and in basically the complete rest of the world no listing at all..

But really, like i allready said, not important and i have basically no idea at all why i waste any time writing this..

But, to finish in proper "on-topic style" of the thread, i will still click the reply button..lol..(i know, very bad joke..)

All the best and have a nice time..!:)
You seem pretty sure of what I care about.....lol. Completely wrong, but very confident none the less...lol.

Since you have shared your psychoanalysis of me, mind if I respond in kind?

You seem to be on a crusade to vindicate the poor forgotten artists of the world who have been ignored and passed over by the ignorant masses.... You are bent on reminding us that "we" are not the only ones, and are in fact actually lower than those we roll over in our greedy quest for fame and profit....

How did I do? Lol

ps-no one said the Dusty tune HIT the top 40... Again, semantics, "top 40" is a convenient way to quickly describe music that gets airplay.......
 

Jeremy Bender

Platinum Member
All of this is great.
After all this discussion, I don't know what the OP meant by "Pre-Grid"?
What's a "grid" as far as drumming goes?
Yes the discusssion nearly went so far off the rails it almost became a new form of transportation, but it steered back on course as these things often do...

I was referring to music that had a nice groove to it due to the fact that it was recorded well before computer software generated drum parts or more specifically, software that corrected any recorded drummers. Video discussing manipulation of a recorded part to a "grid"

To me it reflects the great quote... "The Music Rocks but it doesn't Roll"

I was certainly not criticizing drummers who have the ability to play metronomic time and play clean subdivided patterns within the beat.
That takes great skill and practice (which I lack).


PS Everyone have a safe and enjoyable weekend. I'm gonna go listen to some Johnny Vidacovich
 
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oldskoolsoul

Silver Member
..reminding us that "we" are not the only ones, and are in fact actually lower than those we roll over in our greedy quest for fame and profit..

There is no need to start writing like that, no matter if you write a "LOL" somewhere or not....

I consider no one in the world to be 'lower' at all..

We both apparently care about different parts in the discussion, which i think is fine..

I wrote my replies sometimes in a 'serious' way (just because i care about the artists and music i referred to) and sometimes a 'joking' way..

If you are searching for drama, then please reply to someone else because i am not available for that..
 

Mongrel

Silver Member
There is no need to start writing like that, no matter if you write a "LOL" somewhere or not....

I consider no one in the world to be 'lower' at all..

We both apparently care about different parts in the discussion, which i think is fine..

I wrote my replies sometimes in a 'serious' way (just because i care about the artists and music i referred to) and sometimes a 'joking' way..

If you are searching for drama, then please reply to someone else because i am not available for that..
Not looking for anything....especially not drama. (No more sincere 'lol' attempts to keep this friendly and light hearted).

You stated pretty emphatically that I didn't "care" about something, presumably about musicians and artists outside of the US?

You were, and are, wrong about that. My posts in this thread were not disparaging of any artists anywhere, and were in fact quite complimentary (i.e. GREAT music). I posted a clip of a Cuban-American artist I highly respect (Lili Anel) who is deserving of much more recognition than she is currently receiving. In short, I love and listen to music from all over the world (including by the way, the three examples Alex posted).

For you to say "you don't care" abou such and such was deragatory, unfair, and innaccurate. All I have done was support both sides of the discussion where I saw fit-yes pop music, and a great amount of alt musc is clicked and quantized, and yes you can find GREAT non-clicked and non-quantized music with a little effort.

Not sure how that warranted your comments, so I posted something just as ridiculous in repsonse. My apologies.

Have a great night.
 
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notvinnie

Senior Member
Everything that i wrote in this thread after my reply regarding the production of the Dusty Springfield song, was a reaction to your statement that most music is recorded without a click..

My reaction to that, was that by far most music worldwide is still recorded without a click..
Prove it.
 

notvinnie

Senior Member
For every recording that becomes a commercial success, how many recordings do you think were made that were not successful? More to the point, how many recordings were made that were never intended for mass consumption?
Successful doesn't necessarily require certified silver, gold or platinum status. Successful can mean critical success, or recouping costs, or many other things. Now that anyone can release their music without the requirement of a publisher or record label, I will venture to say that MOST releases are not successful. There are many reasons for that, which can be debated at length, but in general, great music will always find a way to be heard, but it may not always be profitable.
 

notvinnie

Senior Member
Now, you havent answered me why was so expensive, because I undertand you were mentioning it because it was very expensive, right?
$600 is not expensive. Studio time in 1978 would have been a minimum of $50/hr, and then you have the fee for the recording engineer, possibly an assistant, cost of tape. and lastly the musicians (assuming this was Nashville, musicians wouldn't record for free). The vocals may have been recorded live, but chances are that they were redone as an overdub.
 

oldskoolsoul

Silver Member
..For you to say "you don't care" abou such and such was deragatory, unfair, and innaccurate..

To me is pretty clear that with those words i was referring to the "highly aclaimed"-argument that i gave, because in previous replies you were talking about..:

..the "unknown" kid in Ghana or Alabama recording to a utube channel without a click track..
and

..grass roots recordings being made by artists unrecognizable by the greater public..

To me those words at least 'indicate' that you (seem to) not care too much about the "highly aclaimed"-argument, but more about sales, which would have been fine btw..

But, if that will fit you better, the next time i will write that you maybe will not care at all..

Hopefully thats solved then..

:rolleyes:
 
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cbphoto

Gold Member
All of this is great.
After all this discussion, I don't know what the OP meant by "Pre-Grid"?
What's a "grid" as far as drumming goes?
When music is recorded into a digital audio workstation (DAW), the audio file can be manipulated in myriad ways by the software. One of which is to stretch and compress the waveform (i.e., the audio file) of any instrument or vocals.

When a tune is given a tempo in the DAW, a grid of vertical lines appear designating bars & measures & quarter notes, sixteenths, etc. When a snare beat doesn’t land exactly on the 2 or 4, it can be moved into exact placement on this grid of lines in the DAW. Same with a guitar strum or bass pluck: the audio file can be manipulated so that “the band” is tighter; locked in. The technical term for this is “quantize”. Even vocals can be manipulated such that timing & pitch is perfect.

Back in the day, before computers, bands would play live together to better lock in with each other. That’s what the OP meant by “pre-grid”.
 

TMe

Senior Member
...the discusssion nearly went so far off the rails it almost became a new form of transportation...
Yeah, I think I lit that grass fire. My mistake.

I was referring to music that had a nice groove to it due to the fact that it was recorded well before computer software generated drum parts or more specifically, software that corrected any recorded drummers. Video discussing manipulation of a recorded part to a "grid"

To me it reflects the great quote... "The Music Rocks but it doesn't Roll"

I was certainly not criticizing drummers who have the ability to play metronomic time and play clean subdivided patterns within the beat.
That takes great skill and practice (which I lack).
I was over generalizing when I referred to "commercial music", because so much commercial music is over produced now that I tend to equate "commercial" with "over produced". In truth, as has been pointed out, there are sill huge selling recordings that sound very natural, and there are garage band recordings that sound like they were produced by robots.

Willie Nelson's story suggests that when the production gets out of control, the public might get sick of it and start craving something a little more raw. We can hope.
 

paradiddle pete

Platinum Member
Popular doesn't always equate with Good. Conformity to Technology will be always be overcome with the next wave of ? Keep it Real Kids.
 

CommanderRoss

Silver Member
When music is recorded into a digital audio workstation (DAW), the audio file can be manipulated in myriad ways by the software. One of which is to stretch and compress the waveform (i.e., the audio file) of any instrument or vocals.

When a tune is given a tempo in the DAW, a grid of vertical lines appear designating bars & measures & quarter notes, sixteenths, etc. When a snare beat doesn’t land exactly on the 2 or 4, it can be moved into exact placement on this grid of lines in the DAW. Same with a guitar strum or bass pluck: the audio file can be manipulated so that “the band” is tighter; locked in. The technical term for this is “quantize”. Even vocals can be manipulated such that timing & pitch is perfect.

Back in the day, before computers, bands would play live together to better lock in with each other. That’s what the OP meant by “pre-grid”.
Awesome! Thank you for this knowledge. As a player, I don't always know the ins-and-outs of the production side.
Youse guys rock!
 
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