Pre-"grid" musicianship

Mongrel

Silver Member
Have to post this here.... Honestly can't tell if it's clicked, but it definitely ain't...quantized...gridded or homogenized... This lady deserves to be heard and the production sounds wonderful to me...and it is as fluid and moving as a heartbeat...

I give you Lili Anel...."Climb the Wall"

 

NickCesarz

Junior Member
Most of modern popular music is quantized, unfortunately. Most consumers of music couldn't care less and integrity slips under the rug. The first album I did professionally was quantized — we were able to save money and get a better sounding recording using samples in a less than ideal recording situation.

But it's not just the drums that are quantized. It's everything — bass guitars, guitars, keyboards, etc...

I think it can have a place in production, but today it is completely over-utilized.

This thread makes me think of a video Rick Beato did on quantizing John Bonham.

Also, it sounds very strange. I do not like it.

 
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bermuda

Drummerworld Pro Drummer - Administrator
Staff member
I wish Ringo would chime in,That would be interesting. They call it a Backbeat for a reason.
Ringo could keep very good time, and he had an unmistakable feel. The only thing the Beatles did then that's common now is the drum part on Tomorrow Never Knows, whose hypnotic drum loop suited the song perfectly. I wonder if any of them could have foreseen that a repeated drum part would play an important part in a lot of the music of the future?

Bermuda
 

paradiddle pete

Platinum Member
That's just the difference between Recording and Gigging, Gigging drummers have it down Recording drummers need a hand. I believe Ringo was asked what he learnt during the recording of Sgt Peppers , he replied. Chess. On that Revolver track it is an edited played loop, not riding along with a robot. There is a difference.
 
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offdwall

Active member
Most of modern popular music is quantized, unfortunately. Most consumers of music couldn't care less and integrity slips under the rug. The first album I did professionally was quantized — we were able to save money and get a better sounding recording using samples in a less than ideal recording situation.

But it's not just the drums that are quantized. It's everything — bass guitars, guitars, keyboards, etc...

I think it can have a place in production, but today it is completely over-utilized.

This thread makes me think of a video Rick Beato did on quantizing John Bonham.

Also, it sounds very strange. I do not like it.

I'm in NO way promoting the over quantization of these drum parts but the 1st example was SO far off of Beato's determined 170, it's ridiculous. Hence why EVERYTHING of the original part was shown to be behind the beat.

The second shuffle part was a SHUFFLE. He quantized the shuffle out of it.

In summary, I wholehearted agree with Beato's premise but his execution of demonstrating it was severely flawed.
 

notvinnie

Senior Member
Sad noone heard the songs I posted...
I heard them, but your comparison is as ridiculous as your comment "over arranged". You compared apples with oranges. It's fine if you don't like someone's production, but to then post three songs with completely different groups of musicians, playing in a different genre, makes no sense to me.

Also, your point that most music is recorded without a click is just plain incorrect.
 

paradiddle pete

Platinum Member
I just don't understand the notion that rhythm and drumming has to be perfectly in time. Rhythm is elastic it stretches back and forward as it moves. Why is that so wrong? if you don't hit the grid right on the post you are all kinds of wrong, I have practiced recording with no metronome ( click ) using Logic Pro, if tried hard enough you can get pretty darn close if not spot on.. Do you people wear clothes that don't move I mean really. Oh! I get it you click folks like wearing digital girdles. Kinky!
 

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
I just don't understand the notion that rhythm and drumming has to be perfectly in time. Rhythm is elastic it stretches back and forward as it moves. Why is that so wrong? if you don't hit the grid right on the post you are all kinds of wrong, I have practiced recording with no metronome ( click ) using Logic Pro, if tried hard enough you can get pretty darn close if not spot on.. Do you people wear clothes that don't move I mean really. Oh! I get it you click folks like wearing digital girdles. Kinky!
It isn't like that. For me anyhow. As a death metal drummer, I embrace the grid. Death metal is pretty straightforward. It's in your face, so no dynamics. There are lots of "machine gun" parts that require either the feet and guitars or hands and guitars to be in sync with each other. This is where being able to play to the grid comes in. If I play to the grid and am recorded first, the guitars are automatically locked to the grid if they are locked with me when they record their parts. It still has a human element if you don't snap everything to it. The grid is just another tool. You don't have to use it for anything more that a reference if you don't want to.

If I were to record some swing, I wouldn't want the grid. A click, sure. But no fixing the flow.

It's genre dependent for me. I'm a metalhead so the grid is my friend as is the click. Gotta keep those hands and feet even. If I played a less rigid style of music, I would think differently.

No digital girdle here. I'm skinny so I don't need one.
 

Alex Sanguinetti

Silver Member
I heard them, but your comparison is as ridiculous as your comment "over arranged". You compared apples with oranges. It's fine if you don't like someone's production, but to then post three songs with completely different groups of musicians, playing in a different genre, makes no sense to me.
Also, your point that most music is recorded without a click is just plain incorrect.
It is overarranged, you can compare any style, because any stile could be over arranged (I could post the same styles I posted over arranged), or the opposite.

Again, those songs were selected because they were recorded without "grid", and the opener was saying before (in the past) there was no grid and now there is, and as you see my three songs prove me right (they are recent songs), also were selected because they were not overarranged (but that was secondary). The three different countries were chosen because I wanted to introduce other music that the usual it is played here at the forum, but I could very well could have selected other proving my point.

I played thousands of concerts none with click (I never played with click, have you seen me playing?, do you think i need a click?), and many records, none with click, also all the people I know record like that (I only know professionals). It is only in certain circles that this happens (recording with click) or "grid"...

Most recordings and concerts still relay on musicians playing well, at least the ones I buy and watch, if not they are not called.

I know that also good musicians play with that, but if they play well it seems unnecesary, don´t you think? If you play well, what are you going to correct?

Are you a professional musician? Do you record or/and play often? with grid?

I imagine you know and usually go to a lot of countries to say that most music is recorded the way you said, right?

Thank you for saying I´m ridiculous!
 
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notvinnie

Senior Member
Are you a professional musician? Do you record or/and play often? with grid?

I imagine you know and usually go to a lot of countries to say that most music is recorded the way you said, right?
Yes, I have tons of recording experience, ever since 1978. With or without click. To tape (1/4", 1", 2") or digital. I have also worked as a professional recording engineer. I have also worked for the world's largest record company. I am also friends with some of the busiest and most recorded musicians on the planet. I think I know a thing or two about recorded music.

I didn't say that music is never recorded with a click, but it is most definitely the norm. The main reason being the ability to create composites from multiple takes.
 

Alex Sanguinetti

Silver Member
Yeah, but that is mostly I would say, in the commercial industry, there are thousands of things recorded each day that are not recorded like that ALL AROUND THE WORLD, example jazz (real jazz).

Anyway, it is not important (to me,at least)...


Take care....
 
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notvinnie

Senior Member
I never said that ALL recordings are done with a click. I said that MOST were done that way. Jazz is usually recorded with a small budget, and live. Even then, some of those recordings are done with a click, but that would be silly.

Please understand that my view of using a click is purely economical. If a band is well rehearsed, and the musicians are of a high caliber, there would be no need to build composites from multiple takes. But a well rehearsed band with musicians who are used to playing with each other and have spent time learning the music is a rarity. Rehearsals and recording sessions require both time and money. Recording multiple takes with a click saves both. Is it ideal? Absolutely not. A click will also rob the performance from the unique feel that musicians will impart on the music naturally.

I have argued in the past that music should have to be labeled in a way that indicates how "processed" the recording is, in the same way that food should be labeled as to whether it contains genetically modified organisms, etc. There should be a governing body and all recordings would have to comply with documentation and record-keeping requirements to indicate if a recording:
  1. Used a click/metronome while tracking
  2. Uses non-linear takes built from multiple takes (comps)
  3. Uses pitch correction (Melodyne, etc.)
  4. Uses timing correction (beat detective, etc.)
  5. Whether all musicians performed live together, or overdubbed at different times (and where they were each located on the planet)
That requirement would really be illuminating!
 

paradiddle pete

Platinum Member
Click Track Intolerant. It is interesting however that Bonham used here as an example of how recorded music is not time perfect is the creator of some of the most iconic rock drumming. Legend.
 
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offdwall

Active member
I have been a professional recording engineer for 30+ years. I have over 200 albums and untold TV and film credits. I'd say 80% of that material was recorded with a click track. It's VERY common and the caliber of drummers I deal with have absolutely no issue grooving to a click track. The 20% I speak of done without a click are straight ahead jazz records. Those are NEVER done to a click track. There is never any editing between takes for those type of records. I've worked with Benny Golson (for 30 years and many many records), Ron Carter, Joanne Brackeen, Stephon Harris, Uli Lenz, etc. Those guys/gals do not play to a click. It's essentially a live recording. We pick a take and do any overdubs from there. But that is not the norm for pop, rock, modern jazz, TV or film recordings.
 

Alex Sanguinetti

Silver Member
How about all the recordings that are not done with a professional recording engineer which today are the most since everyone can record at home cheap? (before 1970 it wasn´t like this), please watch the last second of this video:
87666

How about other styles, like Argentinian * folk music (or folk music of any country) and a miriad of other styles? In any case I don´t personally care... (if they use click or not). Please, don´t even waste time answering me about it.

*
(mentioned because I was born there and know that is not, but could have include most folk music from everywhere, but maybe USA, haha).

That kind of thinking is like thinking that in the world every one or every family owns a car because in USA they do.


The only "THING" is enjoying good musicians and PLAY great over amazing music.

 
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oldskoolsoul

Silver Member
..Also, your point that most music is recorded without a click is just plain incorrect..

I think that your statement here is actually plain incorrect, also in a factual way..

When you look at all the music that is worldwide recorded, i think is safe to say that by far the biggest amount is recorded without a click..

The world of music is bigger than only the average pop/rock record..

Take a look at complete continents like South America, Africa (!) and Asia, where enormous amounts of music are recorded without a click..

But also in the US, look at all the roots-related music, like alt. country, etc which is recorded without a click..

Like Sanguinetti also mentioned, basically all folklore music, field recordings, etc.. worldwide are recorded without a click..

Almost all jazz music is recorded without a click..

Take a look at all the (little) classical music ensembles who record without a click..

etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc..

And btw, regarding 'governing labelling' recordings (like food), whats next..?

* The drumparts of song 1, 3 and 8 on this album are recorded by a vegetarian drummer..
* The drumparts of song 2 and 4 on this album are recorded by a vegan drummer..
* The drumparts of song 5, 6, 7, 9 and 10 on this album are recorded by a non vegetarian drummer..

and

* No calf drumheads are used on this recording..!

I mean, come on man..lol..
 

TMe

Senior Member
When you look at all the music that is worldwide recorded, i think is safe to say that by far the biggest amount is recorded without a click..
A lot of us simply don't like the sound of most commercial music. People who do, and especially people who work in that industry, sometimes forget that most music fans don't have much use for it, and it actually represents a small portion of the music that's out there. It's music for non music fans, the way McDonald's is food for people who aren't really into food.
 
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