Practice vs talent

[Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX]

An honest question, Chris...hypothetically, if we'd take a thousand complete novices, all of them with the exact same background, and have them all practice the exact same things a thousand hours in the same time space, you don't believe there'd be some girls/guys that would be clearly ahead of the rest?

don't mean to "butt in", but I feel peoples physiology is what would make the difference there; not any kind of "extra talent"

case in point: me
- when I was young - like 4-5 years old - I could play polyrhythmic stuff on the kit after a few listens. . But I was not fast. I could play along to Rush and Kansas with no problem....but not Motorhead. Friends of mine could play real fast stuff, but did not have the inherent coordination that I did. I had to work on speed because of how my muscles work. They had to work on coordination because of how theirs worked.

 

[striker]

It's a good and relevant point, but I hope this Youtube clip has John's permission? He did mention working hard on educational DVDs and some of his work was put online without permission.

I removed my post. However the link to the clip is still remaining in your reply.

 

[Chris Whitten]

An honest question, Chris...hypothetically, if we'd take a thousand complete novices, all of them with the exact same background, and have them all practice the exact same things a thousand hours in the same time space, you don't believe there'd be some girls/guys that would be clearly ahead of the rest?

It's an impossibility, because for me we all make thousands and thousands of different decisions daily from birth.
Like I said, my mother used to play Beatles albums when I was four years old. I started tapping along to the music...I don't know why. Another four year old might be playing in the park, or at the swimming pool. And no, I do not believe someone is made to be a good drummer by genes or divine intervention.
The most toxic application of which is someone who hasn't put in the hard yards, excusing their deficiency by claiming Dave Weckl had more talent. Just for the record, I am nowhere near as good as Weckl because I didn't sit in a practice room for 8 hours a day, not because I'm less talented.

 

[MCS]

It's an impossibility, because for me we all make thousands and thousands of different decisions daily from birth.
Like I said, my mother used to play Beatles albums when I was four years old. I started tapping along to the music...I don't know why. Another four year old might be playing in the park, or at the swimming pool. And no, I do not believe someone is made to be a good drummer by genes or divine intervention.
The most toxic application of which is someone who hasn't put in the hard yards, excusing their deficiency by claiming Dave Weckl had more talent. Just for the record, I am nowhere near as good as Weckl because I didn't sit in a practice room for 8 hours a day, not because I'm less talented.

Totally agree. I also think it's also about what you practice and how much time is spent on that particular area, usually dictated by the musical situations you find yourself in. In your case Chris, to my ears you have a deeper groove than Dave Weckl, but he has more chops.

In my opinion nothing to do with talent, just how much time was put into any particular area.

 

[2 hit wonder]

We are not all the same. We aren't all equivalent in physical attributes, mental acuity nor focus and maturity.
But we GENERALLY fit fairly closely in abilities, with maybe a 15% tolerance amongst the masses.
Synapses develop in freak mode every now and then and produce prodigies.

Evolution and even generational cultural concentrations will produce repeatable preferences for (or against) a behavior and ability.
To deny this is to deny dog breeds, for an example. And there are smarter, more intellectually disciplined breeds of dogs.

You will never be Vinnie.

 

[ravenson]

The recruitment of members for the Bletchley Park intelligence organization is fascinating .

 

[Paul Blood]

You must also consider the environment in which you were raised. Imagine if you had grown up in the Marsalis family, having a father who was a professional jazz musician and educator. Imagine the ( hopefully healthy) sibling rivalry on your respective instruments, not to mention, growing up New Orleans, being surrounded by jazz, and being part of an authentic, musically rich tradition like the Black church. I think, even if you were adopted at birth into such a family, your musical outcome would be a lot different than it is now.

 

[Chris Whitten]

We are not all the same. We aren't all equivalent in physical attributes, mental acuity nor focus and maturity.

That treads very close to racial profiling. Sure, if you are talking about Olympic level swimmers, 100m runners, Tour de France winners, physique including things like lung capacity, height and weight are big factors, but this is music, creativity.
At the end of the day, if you look at the top 100 drummers of all time, in terms of achievements and musical legacy they vary as much as 100 people on the street - black, white, male, female, powerful build, looks like a weakling etc, etc, etc....
Which is why in my view anyone aged 1 can become an incredible drummer, or singer, or songwriter. Nothing to do with genetics or god given talent.

 

[yammyfan]

You must also consider the environment in which you were raised. Imagine if you had grown up in the Marsalis family, having a father who was a professional jazz musician and educator. Imagine the ( hopefully healthy) sibling rivalry on your respective instruments, not to mention, growing up New Orleans, being surrounded by jazz, and being part of an authentic, musically rich tradition like the Black church. I think, even if you were adopted at birth into such a family, your musical outcome would be a lot different than it is now.

So very, very true.

If I had a nickel for every time I learned that some remarkable musician took up the instrument at a very young age (say 4-6) and had at least one musician parent, I would be a millionaire.

I use this knowledge to make myself feel better about my playing and to give perspective regarding how far I've come on my own. I think I would be Gavin Harrison good if I had started playing at age 4 and taken lessons from an early age. I'm very content with what I have been able to achieve under the circumstances. I imagine it's the same for most of us here.

 

[2 hit wonder]

That treads very close to racial profiling.
At the end of the day, if you look at the top 100 drummers of all time, in terms of achievements and musical legacy they vary as much as 100 people on the street - black, white, male, female, powerful build, looks like a weakling etc, etc, etc....

No, Chris. I don't know exactly what you mean by that, but it feels less than healthy and wholesome in delivery. Is that an attempt to shout down a counter opinion to yours?

Synapses don't know what race means. They just form. Your example is intended to define it by race, shame. My example defined it by degree of talent within any race. Really, you should read more carefully.

Your example supported my assertion, that within all groups you will see better results from diff people. The fact that you presented it as a counter with a racial aspect reveals how you coloured the material yourself.
Also, the "top" is an expression of opinion or results which were most importantly borne through a process filtered by industries.

I do accept that not all people are interested nor discerning enough to distinguish latent traits and abilities in people.

 

[Chris Whitten]

No, Chris. I don't know exactly what you mean by that, but it feels less than healthy and wholesome in delivery. Is that an attempt to shout down a counter opinion to yours?

Synapses don't know what race means. They just form. Your example is intended to define it by race, shame. My example defined it by degree of talent within any race. Really, you should read more carefully.

I read just fine and am just posting my opinion. We ARE allowed to have different opinions.

 

[2 hit wonder]

I read just fine and am just posting my opinion. We ARE allowed to have different opinions.

Well then, let's talk about the stated topic only in replies.
I rewrote my reply to support my assertion that within all people and groups there are more and less talented people.
Your example and statement supports my assertion.

 

[2 hit wonder]

You must also consider the environment in which you were raised. Imagine if you had grown up in the Marsalis family, having a father who was a professional jazz musician and educator. Imagine the ( hopefully healthy) sibling rivalry on your respective instruments, not to mention, growing up New Orleans, being surrounded by jazz, and being part of an authentic, musically rich tradition like the Black church. I think, even if you were adopted at birth into such a family, your musical outcome would be a lot different than it is now.

Absolutely. Totally. Jacob Armen is the example I had in my mind. A phenom who started as a toddler. Mozart is another.

And further my own statement was about cultures that have long fostered certain aspects, behaviors and maturity within disciplines. If they spent thousands of years concentrating, focusing, developing, those traits get written into evolutionary code no matter where in the world it occurs. It's universal. The trait may or may not lend itself to use in drumming.

But I look around town at my fellow drummers. The trained, degreed ones are good and are pleasing to watch, but those who developed self trained COMMONLY have something different which definitely isnt less than the others.

 

[2 hit wonder]

I read just fine and am just posting my opinion. We ARE allowed to have different opinions.

Ok, was wondering for a second if we were.
You are then welcome to address my actual statements as they are written. Or not.

 

[toddbishop]

There was also this quote from Buddy a few years back on DW "I think it's a fallacy that the harder you practice, the better you'll get. You get better by playing."
https://www.drummerworld.com/forums/index.php?threads/good-buddy-rich-quote-on-practice.140117/

With all those old guys, they played more than they practiced-- they played a lot.

Like, Art Blakey: “I used to play every night. It didn't matter how much money I was making, I just had to play every night. When we'd get through playing at night, it was daybreak: 6:00. Then we'd play the breakfast show. After that we'd have a jam session which would go on until like 2:00 in the afternoon. So maybe by 3:00 I'd get to bed, and be back in the club again at 8:30. So I never stopped, really. I was playing all the time so I didn't have to worry about practicing.”

Obviously Buddy practiced, I take his comment as: you can't do it just by practicing, you have to play a lot.

@toddbishop I have also heard that phrased as 'practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent'

May be. With all these one liners-- they're guides, they're not the one ironclad rule of whatever subject they're about.

With the nature of this instrument, I don't think people can be worried about perfection in every aspect, every moment they're playing, for fear of permanently ingraining some permanent bad thing that can never be corrected.

Things can be corrected, it happens all the time-- you cruise along playing and realize something isn't working that great, so you sit down for a couple of months and fix it.

 

[MCS]

Well then, let's talk about the stated topic only in replies.
I rewrote my reply to support my assertion that within all people and groups there are more and less talented people.
Your example and statement supports my assertion.

I'd have to disagree with your assertion that within groups there are more and less talented people. If we replace the word talent with physical attributes then that might be a better term.

If I use myself as an example, it's highly unlikely that I'm going to play basketball, though not impossible, but highly unlikely as I'm just not tall enough, however if it came to some sort of sport like wrestling then I'd probably have a much better chance, due to height and general overall build.

Now both of those activities are sports and in sports physical attributes have a massive impact, not that a lack of them can't be overcome, but it puts people without those physical attributes at a distinct disadvantage from the start.

Playing music, whether drums, guitar, piano etc is not predicated on physical attributes. When you learn to play any instrument you are learning a skill, much like being a carpenter. It's about how much time you put in and how you apply yourself to particular areas of that skill. The more time you spend working on that area the better you get at it. More importantly, playing music is a skill that can be learnt. If all of this stuff was predicated purely on physical attributes music teachers of any instrument would have been out of a job long ago.

 

[Chris Whitten]

I'd have to disagree with your assertion that within groups there are more and less talented people.

Talent is such a vague term. No one knows what it actually is.
I agree. The fact Karen Carpenter can solo my ass off comes down to hard work on her part, not god given talent.

 

[Chris Whitten]

With all those old guys, they played more than they practiced-- they played a lot.

If I've been able to work as a drummer since I was 17 comes down to me playing a lot with musicians better than me, not to my practising (I'm ashamed to say). In college kids used to bring something they'd written in 7/8 or 9/8 to band practice and if I had never played in odd times, I had to quickly work out how to do it, or another drummer would take my place.

 

[jda]

Everyone it's argued is born with Talent.
Spark of life
It's how it's used or ever used.
Talent_ + Practice have to add Circumstance

 

[2 hit wonder]

I'd have to disagree with your assertion that within groups there are more and less talented people. If we replace the word talent with physical attributes then that might be a better term.

I think people want to replace the word talent with other words or words that contain a single property (limited scope). But talent is just talent. It contains more than one property, trait aspect. How much of talent is mental and emotional maturity, or impacted by those characteristics?
I'm not going to limit my understanding just for the sake of debating a lesser point, my opinion is that it'sa lesser point.

Theres absolutely differing levels of talent, most of which are insignificant. But there are standouts who are innately gifted. However, there are individuals who arrived at a high level because of immersion at very early ages. Skilled? Is skilled a better word for the latter? Could we prove if they are either skilled or talented, one or the other? Both? I don't know that we can without clinical study.

If I use myself as an example, it's highly unlikely that I'm going to play basketball, though not impossible, but highly unlikely as I'm just not tall enough, however if it came to some sort of sport like wrestling then I'd probably have a much better chance, due to height and general overall build.

Yes, but that's back tracking on something I've already posted days ago regarding Spud Webb being able to dunk all day long.

My ex and her immediate family are innately lacking in ability in handing you something without scratching you with their nails, or making drop the item because they don't let it go when you take it and they pull it from your hand as you assume they decided to hold it for a second longer instead of letting go.

Playing music, whether drums, guitar, piano etc is not predicated on physical attributes. When you learn to play any instrument you are learning a skill, much like being a carpenter. It's about how much time you put in and how you apply yourself to particular areas of that skill.

And how innately talented you are. Also, how you develop the talent, if you have it.

The more time you spend working on that area the better you get at it. More importantly, playing music is a skill that can be learnt. If all of this stuff was predicated purely on physical attributes music teachers of any instrument would have been out of a job long ago.

But since it's not limited in that scope, they aren't. But of even greater importance if it were limited that way teachers would just as likely be around because it's so much fun to do social things like playing music. My grandfather had no dance rhythm unless audibly counted. He danced 6 nights a week until 86 because he so much fun dancing with women. Women being the outcome. Dancing would've been an obsticle he avoided, having little talent for it.

The title insinuates the proposition of whether it's talent or practice. It's usually both. Hey, I'm good at this. This feels good. Imma keep doing it to see how good I am.