Practice vs talent

I totally support discussion without slurs.

And yes, they are, but not always like you're intending to infer. I remember quoting a study that you posted and the stated possible ill effects and being called a slur for quoting the study.
So that hasn't been my experience in discussions. And we even discovered the false statements made that an item was tested when it wasn't and was stated as not having been.
The fact is, people use slurs against people who don't use slurs.

We can probably agree that the label "conspiracy theorist" is the modern day equivalent to the word "witch"? It's seldom used with any tangibles to back it up. It's a cop out.
 
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Chris Whitten said:
Yes, a lot of online opinions are borne out of factless conspiracy theories (sadly).
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bruh...a lot of unnecessary bullcrap in our lives have been borne out of online opinions and factless conspiracy theories...
 
I keep trying to understand where the conflict originates when we discuss the nature of Jazz.

It seems to be a desire to be 'more right'.
 
Otto said:
I keep trying to understand where the conflict originates when we discuss the nature of Jazz.

It seems to be a desire to be 'more right'.
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Mr. Otto,

Are you sure you are in the right thread? Haha...
 
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My thought also @Alex Sanguinetti

What is jazz drumming?

I watch a lot of jazz bands playing in local clubs or virtual online concerts sometimes - and I'm usually amazed by the drumming. It's not my bag to play as I'm more of all round rock, funk, shuffle demon kinda guy. I played a lot of big band stuff early on and played in a few jazz bands.. but...
www.drummerworld.com
 
More from the mouth of Buddy in the exact sentiment of the topic

“I don't put much emphasis on practice, anyhow. I think it's a fallacy to believe that the more you practice, the better you become. You can only get better by playing. You can sit in a basement with a set of drums and practice rudiments all day long, but unless you play with a band, you won't learn style, technique and taste, and you won't learn how to play with a band and for a band.

Once you get a job, any kind of job, it's an opportunity to develop. And practice, besides that, is boring. I know music teachers who tell their students to practice three, four, six hours a day. If you can't get what you want after one hour of practice, you're not going to get it in four days.”


m.imdb.com

Buddy Rich - Quotes - IMDb

Buddy Rich. Soundtrack: Whiplash. Buddy Rich was born on 30 September 1917 in Brooklyn, New York, USA. He was an actor, known for Whiplash (2014), Motherless Brooklyn (2019) and Ship Ahoy (1942). He was married to Marie Allison. He died on 2 April 1987 in Santa Monica, California, USA.
m.imdb.com m.imdb.com


“I think the drummer should sit back there and play some drums, and never mind about the tunes. Just get up there and wail behind whoever is sitting up there playing the solo. And this is what is lacking, definitely lacking in music today.”

“You either swing a band or don't swing a band and that's what's lacking today.. There aren't any guys who get back there and play with any kind of guts.”

“Technique is important, but it's the soul that really matters.”

elevatesociety.com

19 Quotes by Buddy Rich

Buddy Rich, born on September 30, 1917, was an American jazz drummer widely regarded as one of the greatest and most influential drummers in the history of music. Known for his incredible technical skill, speed, and musicality, Rich's performances were marked by his virtuosic drum solos and...
elevatesociety.com elevatesociety.com


 
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I think it’s pretty clear that taken in proper context, Buddy emphasised “playing” over “practicing”. Many of us on the forum have said the same.

However, I think it’s a misrepresentation of that idea to infer his meaning to be “don’t practice” or something similar.

That certainly isn’t what he said to me, directly, in person: “Do you practice, kid? You’ve got to practice. Keep practicing.” (For context I was a teenager & had just been introduced to him as a drummer after one of his shows).

That seemed pretty unequivocal to me at the time, & still does. He wasn’t trying to get a laugh out of Johnny Carson, he was just giving sone straightforward, & friendly, advice to a youngster shaking his hand.

:)
 
Frank Godiva said:
More from the mouth of Buddy in the exact sentiment of the topic

“I don't put much emphasis on practice, anyhow. I think it's a fallacy to believe that the more you practice, the better you become. You can only get better by playing. You can sit in a basement with a set of drums and practice rudiments all day long, but unless you play with a band, you won't learn style, technique and taste, and you won't learn how to play with a band and for a band.

Once you get a job, any kind of job, it's an opportunity to develop. And practice, besides that, is boring.
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None of which implies you don't need to practice.
Playing music is like talking, you need the vocabulary in order to express yourself. What Rich is alluding to is two fold - 1) you need the technical ability to communicate your ideas in the first place - which comes from practice and 2) there is no point to practice if you aren't going to play a lot, which illuminates what you still need to work on to improve. Actually playing places your skill set in context.
From my own experience, being able to play everything easily is boring. Being challenged is essential.
When someone shows me some music they want me to play, it's great if I need to practice it first. It gives me a sense of achievement when I have accomplished the task and if I'd never been challenged and never had to go away and work on something (practice) I'd still be playing like my 18 year old self - which would have been a disaster.
 
Chris Whitten said:
What's your opinion on practice?
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-there is self practice; also/usually practicing on your own preparing to perform adequately at the next step.
-there is group practice (rehearsal), playing with other players, as in a band setting getting tight and acclimating to working with others in a performance.
- there is live performance experience in front of an audience.

Those are all required practices, imo. If the goal is to continually perform to audiences.

Some people don't have others to jam with in a full band situation (or they can't break into gigging yet) so they go to jams and end up performing in front of an audience and end up getting the 2nd and 3rd forms at the same time.
 
I've yet to hear anyone propose that buddy was just being human when he tried to intimate that he does not practice...that he was trying to perpetuate his professional image as an entertainer AND a stellar musician....this is marketing folks...and effective marketing at that...we are, after all, still discussing it!

I think this has many unspoken facets...most do not reflect well on humanity...but does give a light on a subject we avoid...our willingness to...'fib'...to sell units.
 
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Otto said:
I've yet to hear anyone propose that buddy was just being human when he tried to intimate that he does not practice...that he was trying to perpetuate his professional image as an entertainer AND a stellar musician....this is marketing folks...and effective marketing at that...we are, after all, still discussing it!

I think this has many unspoken facets...most do not reflect well on humanity...but does give a light on a subject we avoid...our willingness to...'fib'...to sell units.
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I also feel that there are some limited definitions/views/idea of what practice actually is. And that Buddy was NOT refering to the "door closed, holed up by yurself in the room with a book and a practice pad" kind of practice. Sadly, that is A LOT of peoples view of what practice is. That is just one facet of practicing....
 
Rock Salad said:
For me I feel like practice is winning vs my talent at drums.
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I still can't really tell...in a performance situation, I fall back on what I'm good at, but the thing is...I can't remember ever practicing the stuff I'm good at...

My guess is...this means that whatever I'm practicing right now, will only manifest itself naturally years from now.

I can practice certain specific things for certain songs fine for let's say 'next week', but when it comes to actual playing concepts...myeah...that's a matter of patience. It'll manifest itself when it'll manifest itself.
 
Instead of either-or binary, how about a shot up the middle (third option)? Someone turned me on to this book which I'm halfway through now.
https://thebookofpractice.com/ It's excellent. Worth the $10. It answers the question why some improve very rapidly going on to reach great heights and some level off & stagnate on plateaus. The difference is explained by how they practice and what drives their motivation to practice. The basic gist: Those that excel always, always prioritize improvement and do so by focusing on levels of exercises that are just above what they can actually do. They are fine with fumbling and failing on exercises that are just above them. Once they reach the ability to do exercises with reasonable proficiency 90%+/-, they move on to the next level of things they can't do. More average practitioners spend inordinate amounts of time getting closer the 100% perfection on exercises. A good read and food for thought anyway.

PS. Shot up the middle meaning, outstanding talent isn't something you just "have", but it's how the outstanding talent pursues the activity that gets them to outstanding.
 
Otto said:
...this is marketing folks...
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It isn't though.
Buddy knows that average people don't want to know about the nuts and bolts of ACTUALLY being a professional musician, the tedium, the repetition etc... So he's glossed over it. He's trying to be entertaining in an interview situation.
He used to say all kinds of outlandish things to provoke a response, to be entertaining (as he saw it).
 
I would say Buddy didn't "practice"
He played for sure.. He played around the world for kings and Queens right?

But if he practiced he'd sound

a) much different than he did when he was 12 (documented recording )
b) might have been influenced. By trends, When Tony Williams hit big. When Billy Cobham hit big. Max Roach or Elvin Jones.

He never changed, explored, or changed very little from that recording when he was 12 or 13.
He practiced within his own window and wasn't one to innovate change or be influenced by trends or discoveries

That's 12 years old


another at 12


He slightly altered that by time he was 70

`\~
prosecution rests :rolleyes:
 
jda said:
I would say Buddy didn't "practice"
He played for sure.. He played around the world for kings and Queens right?

But if he practiced he'd sound

a) much different than he did when he was 12 (documented recording )
b) might have been influenced. By trends, When Tony Williams hit big. When Billy Cobham hit big. Max Roach or Elvin Jones.
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So he sounded exactly like this when he was 12 (1930) and was never influenced by trends???

 
Or is it no Matter How much any of us practice we are who we are at 12-13-14?


That may be it
 
Chris Whitten said:
So he sounded exactly like this when he was 12 (1930) and was never influenced by trends???
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he's playing many of the same motions he played when he was 12 just to another different song

Changing the Dress didn't change the girl
She's still the same. there's nothing there radically different- besides the surfaces of the drum set versus a bunch o' woodblocks..
even in the funk section he's still holding his same ol' motions it's the same it's almost identical to those motions when his hands were 12

no he never progressed he adapted what he knew when was 12 he didn't practice he conformed what he already had- to the times

How he knew what he knew at 12 is the question the way larger question
 
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