PASIC 2009

drovja

Senior Member
Anybody on this forum going to PASIC this year in Indianapolis? I just scavenged enough money for registration last week, so I'm really looking forward to it!
 

Bart Elliott

DW PRO DRUMMER
I attended the convention and had a great time.

I shot over 5 hours of video and hundreds of photos, all of which I'm sharing in my report for the Drummer Cafe. I'm currently showing Part 1 of my video report on Drummer Cafe TV, and hope to have Part 2 and 3 available very soon.

Did you go? If so, did you have a good time?
 

jeffwj

Platinum Member
This is just my opinion and no offense, but thank god NARD is back.
I have noticed that NARD is back. I'm wondering if it will take off like it did before. If I may ask, did mean that you do not prefer the PAS? Or is it just that you like the history and style of NARD drumming (as I also do)?

Jeff
 

Bart Elliott

DW PRO DRUMMER
PASIC 2009 - Report

Part 3 of my report from PASIC 2009, currently showing on Drummer Cafe TV.

My apologies for the delay in getting this out. I was extremely busy (sessions, gigs) in the month of December, plus with the holidays, I only recently was able to finish all the editing.

If you missed Parts 1 and 2, you can still view them by clicking the Gallery icon in the lower left corner of the video screen on Drummer Cafe TV.
 

donv

Silver Member
I have noticed that NARD is back. I'm wondering if it will take off like it did before. If I may ask, did mean that you do not prefer the PAS? Or is it just that you like the history and style of NARD drumming (as I also do)?

Jeff
Sorry I missed this back in Nov. Jeff.

This is just my opinion, but to keep it short and simple NARD is about drumming and tradition where I find PAS to more of a political type of organization. When PAS puts out articles about there not being a need for rudiments in learning to play, and their willy nilly renaming rudiments for god only knows what reason I question their worth or value, I find them to be a group the puts a lot of effort into creating their own self importance and then creating their own buzz around their own importance. I also think this is the way it is because so much of the organization comes out of acadamia where membership in organizations and publishing is paramount to advancement.

Yes, I also prefer the NARD style of drumming. It's the basis and basics to almost all drumming and percussion. To put it in terms most here will understand if they are not familiar with PAS and NARD, PAS minimizes the value of Swiss and Scottish drumming and drumming traditions which is really the source of NARD's attitude towards playing the drums. Essays could easily be written on this subject.
 
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Boomka

Platinum Member
Sorry I missed this back in Nov. Jeff.

This is just my opinion, but to keep it short and simple NARD is about drumming and tradition where I find PAS to more of a political type of organization. When PAS puts out articles about there not being a need for rudiments in learning to play, and their willy nilly renaming rudiments for god only knows what reason I question their worth or value, I find them to be a group the puts a lot of effort into creating their own self importance and then creating their own buzz around their own importance. I also think this is the way it is because so much of the organization comes out of acadamia where membership in organizations and publishing is paramount to advancement.

Yes, I also prefer the NARD style of drumming. It's the basis and basics to almost all drumming and percussion. To put it in terms most here will understand if they are not familiar with PAS and NARD, PAS minimizes the value of Swiss and Scottish drumming and drumming traditions which is really the source of NARD's attitude towards playing the drums. Essays could easily be written on this subject.
Now to push this thread down another tangent. Coincidentally, this morning I received an interesting article/note written by Ray Reilly, who studied with G.L. Stone. It arrived in a package from Canada along with a copy of Ray's little-known book. Anyway, the article speaks a little about Stone's position as one of the founders and president of NARD. However, according to Ray, "(Stone) never acknowledged the existence of any Swiss drumming tradition - and pipe band drummers in the USA didn't "really" play."

Now, I haven't had a chance to clarify any of that with Ray, but I thought it was interesting in light of the above. Personally, I think what Stone might've been trying to say was that the Swiss tradition wasn't isolated and closed unto itself, as earlier in the article Ray reports Stone's general attitude, "...that the 26 Standard Rudiments - as adopted by the National Association of Rudimental Drummers (USA) - were based on "ancient sticking" that evolved in Europe and the U.K. as easly as 1750."

Anyway, thre you go... Indeed, Don, essays could be written on this stuff. ;)
 

donv

Silver Member
Now to push this thread down another tangent. Coincidentally, this morning I received an interesting article/note written by Ray Reilly, who studied with G.L. Stone. It arrived in a package from Canada along with a copy of Ray's little-known book. Anyway, the article speaks a little about Stone's position as one of the founders and president of NARD. However, according to Ray, "(Stone) never acknowledged the existence of any Swiss drumming tradition - and pipe band drummers in the USA didn't "really" play."

Now, I haven't had a chance to clarify any of that with Ray, but I thought it was interesting in light of the above. Personally, I think what Stone might've been trying to say was that the Swiss tradition wasn't isolated and closed unto itself, as earlier in the article Ray reports Stone's general attitude, "...that the 26 Standard Rudiments - as adopted by the National Association of Rudimental Drummers (USA) - were based on "ancient sticking" that evolved in Europe and the U.K. as easly as 1750."

Anyway, thre you go... Indeed, Don, essays could be written on this stuff. ;)
Great stuff here Bookma. I'm not really sure it is another tangent. What you wrote highlights what I see as the difference between PAS and NARD.

Your first paragraph is really interesting. From what I've read--I never had the opportunity to know any of these guys--it's the source of why the likes of Ludwig and Stone didn't get along with Moeller. In fact, it''s why Moeller didn't get along with many people at all--at least those that had to do with drumming. Moeller saw more potential then what early NARD wanted to tap into or create. I've also read that the biggest reason NARD fell apart was because of the schism between what NARD was and what it could become. None the less, NARD was always about drumming. PAS really is an organization that is about the people that make it up, and not its subject. This is really obvious when you read their position papers. Granted, no one voice comes out of PAS, but their little entitles, education vs. performance arts for example, seem to have disjunct goals based on the needs of the people involved rather then working for some common goal or good.

Sorry, but I'm a bit confused on your comment about Stone and the Swiss tradition. Are you saying Stone says it didn't exist, or it didn't exist in the US? I don't know enough about Stone to firgure that out one way or the other. As I wrote though, Moeller always thought, "we could be so much more," and I think he was looking to the European traditions with that idea. That's why the history of drumming in the US was so damn important to him. For the most part, he dedicated his life to it.

The ancients? I'd love to find where someone defined what this really means. I assume alot, but I really don't know.

Your second paragraph really takes off with a lot of thought. Is the Swiss tradition closed unto itself? Look at the history of Top Secret. This group was shunned big time until it blew the roof(less) off the Edinburgh Tatoo, then they were great. Top Secrets orginal director was an american who started the American Orignals. Basically Top Secret with Fife. Regardless, even if the Swiss, or Scottish for that matter, traditions are closed unto themselves, it's silly to ignore the long reach they have outside of their own ambitions and desires.

Here's a short list of some of the drum corps in US and almost all private. Some are very traditional, and some not. I saw one corps out of Connecticut play a parade doing all Zepplin tunes, and it was good. Rudimental drumming is alive and well here. You just have to want to find it.
 

Boomka

Platinum Member
. PAS really is an organization that is about the people that make it up, and not its subject. This is really obvious when you read their position papers. Granted, no one voice comes out of PAS, but their little entitles, education vs. performance arts for example, seem to have disjunct goals based on the needs of the people involved rather then working for some common goal or good.
I agree that PAS is very diverse, but that's exactly what its "common goal or good" is. PAS is about getting as many aspects of the percussion world - and their attendant voices - under one umbrella. And due to the sheer diversity of percussion and percussionists, it naturally doesn't have a single coherent 'cause' that it's pushing.

With NARD, it was in the name. Their purpose was to deal with "Rudimental Drumming" and to standardise a method of training/evaluating drummers - but largely military-style drum corps. It was even founded at a Legion gathering. That's a rather narrow scope, especially these days with the influence of percussions from all over the world increasingly making themselves felt in North America. For example, how could a "Rudimental Drumming" organisation grasp and include the drumming of the Indian Subcontinent? Heck, how do you deal with tuned percussion players - i.e. Timpanists and Mallet Percussionists with such a mandate? Or Afro-Cuban music: sure, you can frame some Cuban patterns in the context of rudiments, but that isn't really where they came from: they have a distinct tradition all their own. PAS has this as their mandate:

"The Percussive Arts Society is a music service organization promoting percussion education, research, performance and appreciation throughout the world.
That's a much broader scope, I think, and one that ultimately resists an overly structured or dogmatic approach. And it's one that can ultimately be inclusive of the rudimental tradition.

And I can tell that Laura Franklin really rankled you with her article about rudiments. :) But, to me, that's the strength of PAS. In any one of their publications or gatherings you're going to find people who absolutely swear by a heavily rudimental approach to the instrument and those who question the efficacy of approaching our instruments via a prescripted series of stickings. As you know from our conversations, I have my doubts about a rudiment-centric approach. (BTW, the January issue has a couple of features on Swiss drumming you might like...)

To me PAS represents a broad range of voices and I think that's a really good thing. I don't see why NARD and PAS can't exist at the same time as they are really about two very different things. It's not like the AFL and NFL, or the National and American League. If your interest is rudimental drumming than NARD is the thing for you, but I couldn't ever see myself becoming heavily involved in such an organisation because I don't think it represents my approach to our instruments.
 
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W

wy yung

Guest
People are silly. This debate could be about martial arts.

International Tae Kwon Do Federation ITF: "Tae Kwon Do in it's purest form was that begun by Gen Choi! Only we teach true Tae Kwon Do!"

World Tae Kwon Do Federation WTF: "Only WTF represents true Korean Take Kwon Do. ITF is a Communist North Korean style!!!"

Tang So Do. "What about us???"

Japanese Shotokan expert: "Tae Kwon Do is derived from Shotokan Karate and as such, Tae Kwon Do is a Japanese art!"


And on it goes....

The real truth is that various instructors want to promote themselves and their style at the expense of the wider art. It becomes about individual schools competing with each other for money and position. At the end of the day a punch is a punch no matter the detail involved in the execution.
 

Boomka

Platinum Member
People are silly. This debate could be about martial arts.

International Tae Kwon Do Federation ITF: "Tae Kwon Do in it's purest form was that begun by Gen Choi! Only we teach true Tae Kwon Do!"

World Tae Kwon Do Federation WTF: "Only WTF represents true Korean Take Kwon Do. ITF is a Communist North Korean style!!!"

Tang So Do. "What about us???"

Japanese Shotokan expert: "Tae Kwon Do is derived from Shotokan Karate and as such, Tae Kwon Do is a Japanese art!"


And on it goes....

The real truth is that various instructors want to promote themselves and their style at the expense of the wider art. It becomes about individual schools competing with each other for money and position. At the end of the day a punch is a punch no matter the detail involved in the execution.
I agree, which is why I appreciate what PAS does, though I respect the NARD guys, too. PAS aren't about this or that punch, but about the art of punching in general. That said, I agree that these discussions can have the air of a Monty Python skit to them...

And with Don and I, this really isn't a "debate", but an ongoing discussion we've been carrying on publically and privately for months. We've probably had to agree to disagree as many times as we've agreed. It's all good-natured and in the spirit of learning. Mostly shop talk that my wife doesn't want to hear... I can't speak for why Don does it... :)
 
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wy yung

Guest
Don, and everyone else on this thread is awesome. It's just human nature behind everything. Shotokan punches differ from TKD punches after all. But both work.
 

donv

Silver Member
I agree that PAS is very diverse, but that's exactly what its "common goal or good" is. PAS is about getting as many aspects of the percussion world - and their attendant voices - under one umbrella. And due to the sheer diversity of percussion and percussionists, it naturally doesn't have a single coherent 'cause' that it's pushing.

With NARD, it was in the name. Their purpose was to deal with "Rudimental Drumming" and to standardise a method of training/evaluating drummers - but largely military-style drum corps. It was even founded at a Legion gathering. That's a rather narrow scope, especially these days with the influence of percussions from all over the world increasingly making themselves felt in North America. For example, how could a "Rudimental Drumming" organisation grasp and include the drumming of the Indian Subcontinent? Heck, how do you deal with tuned percussion players - i.e. Timpanists and Mallet Percussionists with such a mandate? Or Afro-Cuban music: sure, you can frame some Cuban patterns in the context of rudiments, but that isn't really where they came from: they have a distinct tradition all their own. PAS has this as their mandate:



That's a much broader scope, I think, and one that ultimately resists an overly structured or dogmatic approach. And it's one that can ultimately be inclusive of the rudimental tradition.

And I can tell that Laura Franklin really rankled you with her article about rudiments. :) But, to me, that's the strength of PAS. In any one of their publications or gatherings you're going to find people who absolutely swear by a heavily rudimental approach to the instrument and those who question the efficacy of approaching our instruments via a prescripted series of stickings. As you know from our conversations, I have my doubts about a rudiment-centric approach. (BTW, the January issue has a couple of features on Swiss drumming you might like...)

To me PAS represents a broad range of voices and I think that's a really good thing. I don't see why NARD and PAS can't exist at the same time as they are really about two very different things. It's not like the AFL and NFL, or the National and American League. If your interest is rudimental drumming than NARD is the thing for you, but I couldn't ever see myself becoming heavily involved in such an organisation because I don't think it represents my approach to our instruments.

NARD"S Mission Statement:

The purpose of the National Association of Rudimental Drummers is to protect and preserve a system of standardized rudiments as an anchor for all marching, concert and drum kit drumming.

As stated by Wm. F. Ludwig in the Spring 1936 issue of The Ludwig Drummer:

"It is the purpose, aim and object of the N.A.R.D. to standardize drum rudiments and to encourage their adoption by all earnest students of drums; also to dispel the erroneous idea that the rudiments are only for the drum corps drummer."

Bookma, I understand your perspective concerning PAS, but I see it as failing on all fronts. Of course there are many aspects to drumming beyond rudimental drumming, but honestly how many tuned percussion instrument players do you know that didn't start with the snare drum? It's the basis of most western drumming, and that's something that is lost with PAS--imo. How many timpani players do you know that aren't familiar with the rudiments? I don't know any, yet PAS has the position that the rudiments aren't necessary. NARD's position was\is that the rudiments are where you start, not end. NARD is about fundamentals, and that's all, "protect and preserve." Once you have a strong foundation, it's up to the individual with where they go. Unlike PAS, NARD is not trying to be everything to everybody at the expense of contradictions and\or ambiguity. Sometimes PAS is downright equivocal imo.

In the Technique section here there is currently a thread about what 5 str and 7 str means. It seems to me that if PAS was interested in drums and percussion and not their own self serving interest they would take on something like the much needed goal of standardizing drum and percussion notation if they want to pursue an all encompassing cabal, but they don't. Instead, if you read their abstracts and postion papers their all about changing drumming with ideas like doing away with the rudiments while at the same time renaming them. What's that about? I just can't find anything coherent about the group. They have some decent clinics and conventions, but I find these events to be more about keeping their name "out there" rather then pursuing a goal. In fact, many of the clinic clinicians are at odds with PAS. Go figure.

I'm more then happy to discuss this futher with you, but since Wy, and I assume others find the discussion silly, we can do it via private messages. As always though, I enjoy our discussions. A belated Merry Xmas and Happy New Year to you and yours.

Vincent

BTW, What is the name of Ray's book?
 
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