Paiste 2002, B8 but why do they sound so good?

WallyY

Platinum Member
This sheet versus cast thing kind of confuses me because whenever i see a video of how cast cymbals are made, they have a cast lump of whatever secret alloy they like that is about the size of a small pie. Then they put them through rolling mills to get the general thickness they need to make whatever specific cymbal they are making.
That's pretty much how sheet metal is made, too, which is what is confusing. If they start with a round piece they cast and rolled themselves or a square sheet that came from a rolling mill, what is the difference? Especially if they both get hammered, tempered, lathed etc after? Those subsequent processes must change the grain and work harden the material. Is the casting only to get their 'secret' alloy mixture?
There aren't a lot of secrets in metallurgy and it would seem that sending a chunk of a cymbal to a lab could yield the make up of these secret alloys and the process necessary to get there. Anyone have any insights into this? Just curious really. Because it seems to be a point that some people hold up as an indicator of quality.
I think you have a very valid theory.

I might guess that Paiste starts with consistent weight discs to continue uniformity thruout the process and Zildj presses the bell into an oblong disc which was weighed before rolling to achieve uniqueness.

I know that UFIPs are cast into shape in a mold and then hammered, so it might just be the combination processes unique to each manufacturer which makes them sound good, not the metal as much. Maybe the lower tin cymbals in the other brands are also made with less steps to make them sound crappier on purpose.

I went with Paiste 2002's in the early 80s because at that time I couldn't find any Zildjians that had bright sparkle to them. They have since improved so much.
 

zoolion

Junior Member
i love paiste too. the 2002 especially. I'm a real newb as far as drumming goes but have been a musician for 30 years and spent my share of time on stage and working closely with many drummers. When I was listening to cymbals for my kit, i played Ziljian, Sabian, Bospshorous, etc and as soon as I hit a 2002 22 inch ride i thought "Thats the one!" ,
Turns out most of my favorite drummers use Paiste, I just never paid attention to it before.
 

Skyking

Senior Member
...the price of commodities - including precious metals such as bronze and silver - has gone up by many multitudes since the early 2000s, and, yet, the price of the top end cymbals produced by the leading makers has risen by perhaps a single multitude...
A possible reason why is that there are so many of them sitting around out there and pricing power is diminished. Although IMO they change slightly (not for the better or worse, just change) they 're essentially as good as the day they were created. That's why I usually buy used. Except for my 2002's, they were an impulsive but happy moment.
 

SgtThump

Platinum Member
Just picked up a set of 2oo2's:

15" sound edge hats
22" ride
18"crash
19" crash

Oh boy are they delicious!
Congrats!!!! 2002 fan here too.

15" SE hats
18" Medium Crash
20" Medium Crash
24" Ride
24" Reverend Al Big Ride
 
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Acidline303

Senior Member
I'm probably seconding or thirding someone here: It's because B8 is no better or worse an alloy than B20 or B15 or anything else. It really just comes down to the inherent tonal quality of increased copper composition and the work and techniques the companies put into manufacturing the cymbal.

Honestly, if you think back to what the three companies were doing in the late 80s, I wouldn't be surprised if both Sabian and Zildjians B8 lines were introduced as a way to scoop up beginner market dollars AND sort of put a stigma into people's heads that Paiste is working with inferior materials and that you should be "graduating to B20 alloy".
 

burt-nl

Junior Member
It is not true that a cast rolled to a sheet and factory made sheet metal are one and the same. Rolling a cast into a sheet is done by rolling a round cast in various directions, while sheet metal is produced by running a rectangular block of metal through a series of roller presses, stepwise reducing the thickness of the sheet in a single direction. As a result the internal metal structure of the two will be very different, thus greatly affecting the sound. So while both can be used to create B8 cymbals, it is just NOT the same cymbal. Even when Paiste were to apply all '2002' production steps to a regular piece of B8 sheet metal, it would not sound like a 2002.

Next there's the discussion of the alloy. Traces of silver. Marketing trick? I don't think so. Just like the Signature bronze alloy is a micture of ingredients, bronze being the most vital one, adding other elements changes the metal characteristics and the sound characteristics. Paiste is known for its consistency, so u can be sure that that B8 mix has defined ingredients that are very closely controlled and monitored.

Finally there's the difference in techniques like latching and hammering. 2002 cymbals always have been in the upper program range. Paiste exactly knows what it takes to make these cymbals look and sound like they do and put the effort in it to achieve it, time after time.

2002's originally were designed to cut through the increasingly applified music. FO602's simply didnt have enough power and volume for that purpose. And 2002 survived many product line changes in the Paiste program. The sheer fact that this cymbal line has been around for so many years and widely is recognized for its contribution to music and musical history makes them a monument. Over the years the 2002 product range has become more extensive and elaborate, for use in a wide range of musical applications. Whether u like them is a matter of personal taste. But take one from whatever production date and it will still sound great and blend in with whatever 2002 cymbal from whatever date. Try doing that with a Zildjian or Sabian: good luck.
 

Dr_Watso

Platinum Member
This sheet versus cast thing kind of confuses me because whenever i see a video of how cast cymbals are made, they have a cast lump of whatever secret alloy they like that is about the size of a small pie. Then they put them through rolling mills to get the general thickness they need to make whatever specific cymbal they are making.
That's pretty much how sheet metal is made, too, which is what is confusing. If they start with a round piece they cast and rolled themselves or a square sheet that came from a rolling mill, what is the difference? Especially if they both get hammered, tempered, lathed etc after? Those subsequent processes must change the grain and work harden the material. Is the casting only to get their 'secret' alloy mixture?
There aren't a lot of secrets in metallurgy and it would seem that sending a chunk of a cymbal to a lab could yield the make up of these secret alloys and the process necessary to get there. Anyone have any insights into this? Just curious really. Because it seems to be a point that some people hold up as an indicator of quality.
Stretching a cast into shape is absolutely nothing like stamping out a round thing from a huge sheet of b8. The process a cymbal goes through from the rough casting is both extremely time consuming and labor intensive. They alternate the direction each pass so that the metal gets pulled into shape for just that pie, essentially outward from the center, as opposed to simply stamping out a hole from one part of a sheet that was rolled out as one. This greatly affects how the cymbal resonates, feels, and reacts as it's played, not to mention the tone.

Stamped cymbals almost universally have a clangy, short and "rude" tone to them.
 

digibird

Senior Member
I don't know why Paiste 2002s sound so good, but I do know there is no better cymbal sound to my ear, and my addiction continues:

14" & 15" sound edge hi-hats

20" & 24" rides

16", 17", 18", 19", 20", 22", 24" crashes

I bought all of those 2002s over a 15 year period, so it's a slow, determined acquisition.

I especially like the 15" hats with the 24" ride and 22" & 24" crashes, played with 14-16-18-26 Ludwig Classic Maples or Vistalites = Happy Family!
 

Tommy_D

Platinum Member
A buddy of mine started drumming right around the same time I did in the early 90's. I started off with Zildjian A's and he went with the Paiste 2oo2's. Wow, big difference between these two cymbals to my ears. My A's had a softer, warmer, more open tone where his 2oo2's had a harsh, clandy sound. Far too much stick definition where cymbal swells sounded like single stroke rolls instead of a single sustained, open swell. Those 2oo2's turned me off from Paiste for probably 15 years. I one day went in to a guitar center some years back looking for a new splash cymbal and the guy pulled out a Paiste Signature splash. I was immediately ready to tell the guy Im not a Paiste fan and then he hit it. Wow, it was the best splash cymbal I had ever heard. So I snapped it up. Needless to say, Im now a Paiste fan, but 2oo2's arent going to be a part of my cymbal arsenal.

BTW, my buddy later sold all his Paiste cymbals and plays Sabian and Zildjian now. I on the other hand still have and use all my original A's I got with my first kit in '93.
 

Acidline303

Senior Member
his 2oo2's had a harsh, clandy sound. Far too much stick definition where cymbal swells sounded like single stroke rolls instead of a single sustained, open swell.
I find most of the 2002 (and signature) power crashes suffer from this character. Only the 20s seem to keep a bit of a spread in the attack.

Of course so do most rock or heavy crashes from Zildjian or Sabian. Or the Z series for that matter.

And all of those cymbals seem to magically take on a new life when you pit them against a couple Sunn or Orange cabinets and you hear them from out front, sitting right on top of the mix.
 

veggo32

Silver Member
I have a 2002 16 medium crash and its an awesome sounding cymbal. My other crash is a 16 thin 404 series. Yes they are the same size but they sound different due to their thickness, but they match perfectly sonically speaking.
if you can find any paiste 404, 505 or 2002's they are all great sounding cymbals.
Same alloy composition but variations in the hammering and lathing techniques.
 

beatz808

Junior Member
A little off topic but I just realized that the "2002" doesn't mean these cymbals were manufactured that year. lol I so have a lot of learn about things in the drum world (i'm new from guitar land)...lol
 

Acidline303

Senior Member
I have a 2002 16 medium crash and its an awesome sounding cymbal. My other crash is a 16 thin 404 series. Yes they are the same size but they sound different due to their thickness, but they match perfectly sonically speaking.
if you can find any paiste 404, 505 or 2002's they are all great sounding cymbals.
Same alloy composition but variations in the hammering and lathing techniques.

I'd throw the 3000s in there too. 2002 alloy with Signature style lathing.
 

Seafroggys

Silver Member
A little off topic but I just realized that the "2002" doesn't mean these cymbals were manufactured that year. lol I so have a lot of learn about things in the drum world (i'm new from guitar land)...lol
No, you were correct. Led Zeppelin were really Time Lords.
 

fusseltier

Junior Member
I started playing back in the 70s with my Ludwig stainless steel drum set with zildjian cymbals. But, even though I didn't play hard, they started cracking around the bell. So, I figured if led zeppelin and van Halen used 2002s, I'll try them, and I've been playing them ever since.
I've never cracked any of them and I've had a couple dozen over the years.
I'm still playing some 35 years old 2002s too.
 

Living Dead Drummer

Platinum Member
My current Cymbal setup for recording, and anything not overly aggressive I am using all 2002's. (The Heavy gigs I use Colorsound 900's)

Here's 2002 my setup:

14" Sound Edge Hi Hats
19" Crash (x2)
22" Power Ride
18" China

They record beautifully for any playing situation, and really sound fantastic live, especially on Pop/Rock stuff.

And here's a pro tip, if you want that great 2002 sound, but don't have the extra $$ check out the PST7 line. They are basically 90% 2002's at a fraction of the cost. I've got a set for my rehearsal studio, and a few of my students have them as well. They sound incredible!!
 

BertTheDrummer

Gold Member
They record beautifully for any playing situation, and really sound fantastic live, especially on Pop/Rock stuff.

And here's a pro tip, if you want that great 2002 sound, but don't have the extra $$ check out the PST7 line. They are basically 90% 2002's at a fraction of the cost. I've got a set for my rehearsal studio, and a few of my students have them as well. They sound incredible!!
I agree (even though this is an old thread I figured I'd chime in anyway). I have just found my 2002s just seem to sit really well in the mix.

I'm running with the following:
15" Sound Edge Hats
18" & 20" Crashes
22" Prototype Ride

I also have a 24" Rev. Big Al Ride if I want to roll with a large ride but the 22" is the workhorse.
 
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