Original band collaboration tips?

We know you know, but I'll put it out there anyway: A quick search will reveal the thousands of drummers who provide recording services of their craft. Heck, why not hire this guy? Or this guy? ?

It would be a fun experiment to put together a pool of money and hire one of those guys and see if KamaK is satisfied with the result. I'm not saying it's the case here, but one can't dismiss the possibility that KamaK has unrealistic expectations. We can't really judge without hearing what his drummers are actually delivering.
 
The problem that I have with "me" writing the drum parts is that I still lack the ability to apply the vocabulary I've developed in a meaningful way. I can blaze the first pages of Stick Control on the practice pad, and I can work the patterns over a dozen different foot ostinati on the kit, but I have no experience putting any of it in a musical context. When I revisit the music of my formative years, I'm finally starting to here drummers using the rudiments creatively... But applying vocab in a clever/manner manner in my writing is something that seems a couple years out.

Here's what you do. Take your song one section at a time and loop it. Now just jam out on it. Use the loop as your click and start to learn to apply what you have already learned. Repatition is your friend as a writing drummer. If you just try to put down what you hear in your head you are missing the beauty of it. Let your mind and limbs wander. Get so lost in the loop you can shift it's feeling, make it feel like something else. That's where the magic lies. When you listen back you will have a whole myriad of grooves to choose from. And probably some things you didn't know you had in you.
 
Update.

Took the advice in this thread and tried two local pro ringers. No dice. Neither could give me a convincing slow 6/8 shuffle. Both sounded like Neil Peart trying to audition for Jonny Cash against a part that has a decidedly Appalachian feel (not country).

Took out a CL advertisement. Four responses with no audio samples. So I asked for audio samples of their playing. They all have none. I ask if they have the ability to record their drums, even if it's on their cellphone. Nope.... Boggles the mind.

Imagine putting out an Ad for a male model, and none of the responses include pictures. When you ask for pictures, they say they have none. When you ask if they can take a selfie with their cell, they say no.

If a person plays drums in the woods, and there's no one there to hear 'em, are they a drummer?
 
If they can't play a 6/8 shuffle. They aren't pro-ringers... CL has about a 3% effectiveness rate and I don't any pro's use it to find other musicians.

What do you need? Tracks for a demo? A live drummer for shows?
Are you approaching them as two independent tasks?
 
if a person plays drums in the woods, and there's no one there to hear 'em, are they a drummer?

Sure are! (I live in the woods, and like to play when no one is home)

I am no help to you as I have no recording gear.

Do you have a way of programming drums? Like Beat Looper or something?
 
I think KamaK should do one of those videos like that annoying bass player on youtube who "slaps the bass" where he gets a bunch of pro's to submit work that he pays for and does a review of the efforts.
I can't take his video production personally, but the concepts are entertaining.
 
If they can't play a 6/8 shuffle. They aren't pro-ringers... CL has about a 3% effectiveness rate and I don't any pro's use it to find other musicians.

What do you need? Tracks for a demo? A live drummer for shows?
Are you approaching them as two independent tasks?

I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment.

What I need is a drummer with a sympathetic ear that I can use when working with independent artists, and someone to play in an indie-pop band with. These need not be the same person.

Do you have a way of programming drums? Like Beat Looper or something?

I can simply play the drums, but was told (in this very thread) that this interferes with another drummer's creative process. The argument is that I create a preconceived bias towards my interpretation of the song's drums and that this results in butthurt. Here's what I sound like.


Dan,

Pretend we play in a band together. Our singer (4 Chord Joe) lays out his new idea on acoustic and sends it it to us. I open a GB/Logic project and share it on iCloud. I start to hash out the guitar work, bass player starts hashing out the bass work, and you (the drummer) start to hash out the drum work. The objective is a collaborative ~24-bar scratch track where we sort out the feel and interplay between instruments. What you get when you open the project on day-1 is basically something like.....
A week goes by and we all get our parts together (writing/learning). The singer/producer arranges the song with a bit of copy/paste and we open a project to record it semi seriously. It sounds something like....
The problem I face is that I can't find a drummer that passes the 24-bar smell test. Either they don't contribute, lack the ability to play to a metronome despite being FAR more talented than I, or they totally miss the mark in terms of feel as if they're playing a completely different song than the rest of us. Other times, they'll pass the 24-bar smell test but "forget" the part when we go to re-record.


The real kicker is.... I began learning drums 3.5 years ago in order to avoid this exact problem.
In another 2 years, I'll probably resign to do it myself.
 
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I kinda stopped reading after a few pages but I'll summarize my thoughts.

For "original" music it is typically two ways 1) They want me to be creative and come up with the parts or 2) they want you to replicate the ideas in their head or that they have scratched out. Only "better".

If it's option 1 then it's best if they just provide the song with a click only. Really I would prefer to actually be a part of the writing process so I can influence things like structure or recommend they do something that would go well with a percussive theme I'm working. Baring that, then I'd just want to hear a click and all the other elements. The more open minded the songwriter is the more fun it is to work on things like this. As has been mentioned several times, each drummer has his own way of playing and their own habits and idiosyncratic things.

For option two where they want something exactly, well that is a lot less fun. Creativity and input is mostly out the window and you're left with the job of memorizing and learning or repeating a laid out track. If I'm being honest this is only really desire-able if I'm getting paid for my efforts that result in someone else's vision. I would ask for the opposite of what I'd want for situation 1. I'd ask for scratch drum ideas, programmed drums with progression, or a detailed song map with notes about what kind of things they want to hear. Nothing is more irritating than doing things over and over while a guitar player says "not like that, though" while he tries to get some weird idea out while not understanding how beats work, or not giving specific note requests while still wanting something specific.

As a last note, another reason option 2 can suck is that sometimes just playing melodic instruments along to a click doesn't mean all the playing was actually in perfect time for a number of reasons. Doing drums last is incredibly difficult unless the other players are very high caliber and things are kept very tight.

The overall theme here is the more you involve a drummer in the early stages the more input, fun, and creativity they'll have. It will also enhance the whole process of writing a song and probably come out better as a whole. The drummer and guitar player should sit in the same room with instruments and try some ideas together. Way less frustrating.
 
I can simply play the drums, but was told (in this very thread) that this interferes with another drummer's creative process. The argument is that I create a preconceived bias towards my interpretation of the song's drums and that this results in butthurt. Here's what I sound like.

Okay, gotcha. I went back and re-read the thread. I just can't believe other drummers have a problem with just jamming over and being creative on top of another drum part. I stopped learning parts a long time ago. If I listen to music while I play, all I do is jam out over the top of others drum parts. Now granted, my interpretation of it will be vastly different from others interpretations, but I don't see why that's so difficult.

I thought your playing was fine. Sure, it could be embellished, but it's a great place to start. It's like building a house. You have set the foundation. Why someone else can't pick out the doors and windows is baffling.
 
As a last note, another reason option 2 can suck is that sometimes just playing melodic instruments along to a click doesn't mean all the playing was actually in perfect time for a number of reasons. Doing drums last is incredibly difficult unless the other players are very high caliber and things are kept very tight.

The overall theme here is the more you involve a drummer in the early stages the more input, fun, and creativity they'll have. It will also enhance the whole process of writing a song and probably come out better as a whole. The drummer and guitar player should sit in the same room with instruments and try some ideas together. Way less frustrating.

I wholeheartedly agree. Now if only I could find a drummer that would get involved when 4-Chord-Joe presents, and then remember what he played in that jam session (I provide recordings) for the 24-bar-scratch track, could play the 24-bars to a metronome consistently, read the arrangement/play-through/Memphis chart at the next rehearsal/working-session, and then record it over the next week to the new project... If I could find that drummer, I'd be fine.

Also note, that 24-bar scratch track is part of the jamming/development. If a drummer decides he wants to swing a song differently, then the guitars/bass get redone to compensate. If the drummer has a particular fill on take#3, the guitars and bass have to find a way to make room or comp it. Maybe he'll use brushes on take#5. The drums are certainly not last, and those guitar tracks are only a placeholder for what will ultimately be developed/revised/iterated into a real guitar part on a real amp. Heck, the guitar part in the 6/8 tune above is a mashup of Norwegian Wood, Home on the Range, Honky Tonk Woman, and the exit music to SNL.... Definitely not intended as permanent.
 
I wholeheartedly agree. Now if only I could find a drummer that would get involved when 4-Chord-Joe presents, and then remember what he played in that jam session (I provide recordings) for the 24-bar-scratch track, could play the 24-bars to a metronome consistently, read the arrangement/play-through/Memphis chart at the next rehearsal/working-session, and then record it over the next week to the new project... If I could find that drummer, I'd be fine.
I don't mean this in any flippant way at all, but you've described a session/studio drummer for the most part. That's what they get paid for is consistency, accuracy, musical-maturity and reproduction. It sounds like you're using guys who aren't at that level, so I don't really see an answer for you other than lots of patience and trying to involve them as much as you can early on.

As for not remembering what they played, that happens to me sometimes. You're already recording the sessions so it shouldn't be that much of an issue. If a drummer can't re-produce something they have already played it tells you a few things; first that they are still a little new in their drumming journey and second, that part might not be the "perfect" compliment to that part of the song. Typically when a fill, flourish, accent or whatever is "perfect" then you tend to have the same idea over and over as inspiration from the song. I have original songs that I've been playing for a LONG time and all the little stuff can change quite a bit, but the stuff that really fits and makes the song better tends to be remembered and re-produced.
 
I prefer getting a track with programmed drums, being told to keep the feel or keep it reasonable, and have full creativity.
I have been given punk, metal, rock, country songs, and as long as they are to a click I will record something that fits the music. not what I necessarily want to play. I have been told by people to "play over the top" or "hold back on fills" before recording. I tend to listen to the song writer most of the time. Especially if I am getting compensated.

At the end of the day, keep it very clear what you are looking for, or want to provide. Programmed drums for scratch tracks are always good. and use a click.

Be specific if you want the stems or wav files, or a mixed track. If you want any editing and or mixing done too. Some guys want to do it themselves, some want it polished. As a drummer I have been on both sides of this. I like to edit my own stuff If I can. The last guy gave me his session and just said to mix my drums how they sound good and it was almost a finished product.

I have had guys want the originals do the editing and mixing as well.
 
All you need to do to sound better on the drums is remove about 90% of your crash hits and focus on laying steady on your bass drum and lead hand and your drum parts are good to go. Your right foot and left hand are doing fine with the bass and snare. I just think you're trying to accomplish too much with your right hand and sending it around the kit so much is losing some tightness in your playing.

I think what you're looking for is a drummer with pro skills and a creative approach and you probably won't be able to afford that person until your project is in a money making situation. You just won't get a dedicated player of the caliber you're seeking without emptying your pockets on a project that can't afford it (yet).

What are your short and long term goals with the music? Do those goals help the drummers you're working with in any way?

I think your best answer is to take it on yourself. I think you have this.
 
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some sort of creative miracle guy
This thread is starting to sound more to me like a general on-going complaint about other drummers than anything else..

Apparently, I'm searching for a local drummer with >~5 years experience that isn't a flake. As you pointed out, the genre isn't particularly difficult. It challenged my imagination to think that I would need a seasoned pro for this... And then I tried two local pros as an experiment, and got prog-rock.

This is indeed a lament, but not a generalization of drummers.... Just anecdotal recollection of the drummers I have so far encountered in my area.

You guys are probably right. I should just STFU for another 1.5 years, keep practicing, and do it myself.
 
..I should just STFU for another 1.5 years, keep practicing, and do it myself..


Sorry, i just removed my reply because i wanted to replace an edited version, but the lines you quoted would still have been there..

No one should STFU..

There is just a reason why drum parts work or not, also when they are very easy..

Someone who gets the genre will play a convincing beat, others will play something that maybe sounds similar but just will not feel right to people who are really into the genre..

Thats what seperates an amateur from a non amateur in my opinion..

Each genre requires a certain amount of affinity and taste, which many drummers lack..

And regarding practice or experience time, there are drummers who play 1 year and sound allready pretty awesome and there are drummers who play 40 years and still sound complete crap..

Thats just how is..
 
Sorry, i just removed my reply because i wanted to replace an edited version, but the lines you quoted would still have been there..

No worries. The only thing in your post that really hit me in the chest is when you referred to my genre using the word "country".

I should really start posing my not-pop stuff in the playing section.
 
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