On behalf of creativity.

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
By the way, did you see Neil Peart with the Buddy Rich big band at his memorial concert (also including Colaiuta, Chambers, Weckl and so on)? He didn't quite fit the style, did he?
Matthias, there's was a long thread on this that you'll probably find interesting: http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54159

I never got the Neil Peart thing, myself. In my prog fan days he never gave give me a kick like Bill Bruford, Mike Giles, Carl Palmer, Aynsley Dunbar or Terry Bozzio - guys with very individual drumming voices. To me, Neil always just sounded like a very good conventional rock drummer by comparison. Not sure if anyone will relate to this but that's how I felt then, and still feel today.
 

MikeM

Platinum Member
Why the sudden jazzer bashing?
If some posters on this forum managed to shy you away from Elvin with Coltrane (if you loved it before that is), maybe the problem lies on your side, if I dare ask....?
No no, it's cool. Actually, I never took a strong liking to much of the Elvin or Tony stuff, but I recognized the quality of the drumming and playing so I was dismissive of my own lack of taste for the whole of it. I was in denial about the music itself.

Now, in light of some consistent and common 'worldviews' I've been noticing from many jazz players around here and elsewhere, I've noticed a shift in my own opinion that the jazz aesthetic is more of an exclusive club than anything innovative and groundbreaking. It's just a vehicle for showcasing one's overdeveloped chops.

So today while trying to listen to Coltrane, I just thought, "You know what? I really don't like this kind of music. I don't like that the melodies are so random and non-repeating. I don't like the sound of the instruments, and whole thing lack cohesion, the endless noodling... and I'm turning it off as fast as I can!"

Yesterday I watched the Chick Corea with Jeff Ballard video and it left me not just cold, but almost sad. It's like a religion I don't want any part of. Back in the '80s, I used to listen to Chick Corea’s Electric Band because of the young hotshot drummer he had playing with him. And what was I reading just the other day somewhere in this forum? That someone was claiming that Weckl wasn’t a jazz drummer! Stunning. If he’s not good enough or pure enough for jazz, then I don't want any part of jazz.

I think jazz went over the cliff after the big band era, myself.

My attitude shift hasn't really been that sudden, it's just that the opinions towards music and other musicians has been brought into sharper relief. I'm seeing that many (or most) of these people recognize that their years of hard study makes them "better players" than most, but have absolutely no appreciation for (what I consider) clever songwriting of a typical Lennon/McCarteney collaboration, for example – unless they wanted to steal a section and make a ridiculous jam out of it. As Steamer has pointed out more than once: it's not the form that's important, it's what takes place in the form.

I just could not disagree with that more strongly. To me, form is EVERYTHING.

Maybe similar is the case with some of you guys who were (or are) very much into Peart or Copeland and, more importantly, in their respective bands? I know they had and have a great influence on many other drummers and can therefore be looked at as important drummers who have invented some creative things. But if one was never really into the Police or into Rush, they seem less important than others.

By the way, did you see Neil Peart with the Buddy Rich big band at his memorial concert (also including Colaiuta, Chambers, Weckl and so on)? He didn't quite fit the style, did he?
That’s very true, I think. Those two drummers (Copeland and Peart) played the soundtrack to my first years of drumming. Music is contextual – you have to be in the moment with it. I wasn’t born early enough to get into the many bands of the ‘60s that had such great influence. Even Led Zeppelin never captured my fancy. I remember growing up not liking John Bonham. I didn’t like his lazy feel and something about that band in general felt stale to me. Perhaps it was their over use of blues? I don’t know. I know I came to appreciate Bonhams drumming only years later, but I still don’t own an Zeppelin CDs.

I’m fascinated how many people on drum forums in general use his picture as their avatar and have some bonzo-themed username. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but I never would have predicted it as a kid in the ‘80s.

Yes, I did see the Peart videos with the Buddy Rich Orchestra. Yes, it was hard to watch. The swing is just not in his DNA. But as he says, he is very linear in everything he does, and it’s that inflexible sweetness in his time that made him such a standout in the context of Rush.

I know he gets roundly criticized for his rigid groove, but that’s exactly what I find so appealing about his playing. Alan White has that thing, too. So did the guy from The Cars. So have a lot of drummers. It can be used to great effect.

Did you ever hear him and Steve Smith drumming together with Jeff Berlin. Talk about a study in contrasts! It worked so well, too.

It’s too bad some jazz people focus so much on what he can’t do and not take the time to see what it is that he does really well. More often you hear, “Oh that’s not remarkable at all, I could do that…” But it’s not whether you could copy him (or anyone else’s compositions), it’s whether you could have thought of something as compelling given the same opportunity to compose it yourself. I’d hate to hear the jazz drummer version of Limelight!
 

dale w miller

Silver Member
If I really think about it, I could find a lot negativity in every genre. Over the years I realized I have quite a but of eclectic taste, I am simply looking for integrity, if it's song based music obviously a well written song and the desire for the artist to do something new.

When I was younger I used to get upset about bands like Nickelback or Creed being successful. Sure, it is frustrating when you are releasing records just the same and they are making millions of dollars and you know that moment you get off tour you have to hit the day job. But I've come to terms with being on an Indie label and releasing the type of music I am proud of, over playing music I don't even want to tell my family to come see me play. The other thing on a fan side is, the bands you like always play in smaller venues where the show's ticket price stays reasonable and you can actually see them. I wish I simply let the people who couldn't tell the difference between Pearl Jam and Creed listen to Creed. It would have made it easier for me to get tickets in the end. Being someone who saw PJ in a 300 person venue in '91, I can't imagine seeing them now.
 
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Pollyanna

Platinum Member
So today while trying to listen to Coltrane, I just thought, "You know what? I really don't like this kind of music. I don't like that the melodies are so random and non-repeating. I don't like the sound of the instruments, and whole thing lack cohesion, the endless noodling... and I'm turning it off as fast as I can!"

Yesterday I watched the Chick Corea with Jeff Ballard video and it left me not just cold, but almost sad. It's like a religion I don't want any part of. Back in the '80s, I used to listen to Chick Corea’s Electric Band because of the young hotshot drummer he had playing with him.
Maybe try these - Return to Forever's first album http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2E3W9xygWM - listen to the moodiness and the gorgeous flow.

Or how about 'Trane's Alabama (Ken put me onto this one) - how moody and soulful is that?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j_TDoOPnIA. Check the end when Elvin goes off, symbolising the KKK attack on back people that the song was mourning. Deep stuff.

For form, try Dave Brubeck Blue Rhonda A La Turk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kc34Uj8wlmE

I enjoy examples of almost all styles (yes, even country e.g. Johnny Cash's Mercy Seat) and I also find things I don't care for in all styles.

Wow, from Nickelback to Brubeck. How did that happen? :)
 

MikeM

Platinum Member
Okay, I liked the Brubeck quite a bit. That drew me in and was interesting. It was also clearly composed. Dare I say - it has a hook about it.

I had Romantic Warrior as a teen, and forced myself to listen to it, but never quite made friends with it, either.

I always really liked Weather Report with Jaco and Erskine. Is that jazz? I strongly suspect it is not, but I guess it just depends on the purist you're posing the question to.
I enjoy examples of almost all styles (yes, even country e.g. Johnny Cash's Mercy Seat) and I also find things I don't care for in all styles.
Me too. I'm mostly a rock guy but there are more rock bands I don't like one's I do. The closer the rock gets rawk, metal, or anything that would sound good blaring out of a Camaro, the more likely it is that I'm not going to like it. Not sure why that is. There are forms of rock that definitely have no appeal for me.

Other genre's typically just have a higher ratio of unlikable to likable bands. There are ALWAYS exceptions.
 

Swiss Matthias

Platinum Member
I've noticed a shift in my own opinion that the jazz aesthetic is more of an exclusive club than anything innovative and groundbreaking. It's just a vehicle for showcasing one's overdeveloped chops.
I think that's true for some jazz-subculture consisting of "purists". I experience the same thing in my environmnet. Sadly enough, I believe the music deserves more credit than it often gets because of that.
So today while trying to listen to Coltrane, I just thought, "You know what? I really don't like this kind of music. I don't like that the melodies are so random and non-repeating. I don't like the sound of the instruments, and whole thing lack cohesion, the endless noodling... and I'm turning it off as fast as I can!"
Lots of jazz friends I know are not very into Coltrane either! I for myself discovered the piano trios, I especially like Enrico Pieranunzi. He mostly has Andre Ceccarelli or Joey Baron on drums. Maybe you give some other "formats" a try without any brass and wind in them :p!
Yesterday I watched the Chick Corea with Jeff Ballard video and it left me not just cold, but almost sad. It's like a religion I don't want any part of.
I like your comparison. But I think Chick Corea is a deeply musical guy with great taste, he just happens to play a lot of flashy and quite out there stuff too, but you have to watch i.e. the Barcelona concert recording, with Tom Brechtlein on drums - Corea is quite diverse.
Did you ever hear him and Steve Smith drumming together with Jeff Berlin. Talk about a study in contrasts! It worked so well, too.
Not seen that unfortunately.
It’s too bad some jazz people focus so much on what he can’t do and not take the time to see what it is that he does really well. More often you hear, “Oh that’s not remarkable at all, I could do that…” But it’s not whether you could copy him (or anyone else’s compositions), it’s whether you could have thought of something as compelling given the same opportunity to compose it yourself. I’d hate to hear the jazz drummer version of Limelight!
I think that's a phenomenon of many jazz purists: They have no respect whatsoever for greatly arranged or played pop or rock or funk music, because it's repetitive, easy to analyze and harmonically rather primitive, mostly, but they couldn't even play it themselves with the taste and sound necessary.
I think a great (and open-minded) musician has respect for any well-played and/or well-composed and -arranged music, no matter what style.
I find myself digging more fusion-oriented music, as long it's not just cold and meaningless displaying of licks and chops. Fusion to me is kind of the power and groove thinking of rock and funk melted with the open and improvisative mind of jazz, meaning with enough taste and sense for it many styles can be thrown in and turned into a piece of great, moving and interesting music. Hope I make sense
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
Okay, I liked the Brubeck quite a bit. That drew me in and was interesting. It was also clearly composed. Dare I say - it has a hook about it.

I had Romantic Warrior as a teen, and forced myself to listen to it, but never quite made friends with it, either.

I always really liked Weather Report with Jaco and Erskine. Is that jazz? I strongly suspect it is not, but I guess it just depends on the purist you're posing the question to.
I've never been taken with most of RTF - it reminds me too much of Dream Theater HAHAHA. My first taste of fast unison runs was Crimson's Schizoid Man and that amazed me, but after that the novelty was gone and I felt it was rather ugly. Of course, the frontiers were there to be stretched and guys like Chick, Al DiMeola, Stan Clarke and Lenny White are guys who can do it, but I'd rather hear Airto's delicate beauty any day.

Thing is, tracks like RTF (eponymous album/song) and Alabama are strongly emotional pieces - expressionist art. Not everyone likes expressionism. I like it if it's expressive enough :)

I've always liked Weather Report's fusion. I bought Black Market and Heavy Weather eons ago. Great, great music.

You would have enjoyed Jeff Beck's Blow By Blow, wouldn't you?

Other genre's typically just have a higher ratio of unlikable to likable bands. There are ALWAYS exceptions.
I'm hearing you but I really value those exceptions. Over the years they have tended to open musical doors for me as a listener, including a few blind alleys.

Trouble is, my ears are far more advanced than my limbs. I was just thinking today that I have never been in a band that plays music that I listen to for pleasure. That's pretty weird, isn't it?
 

MikeM

Platinum Member
I think you would have enjoyed Jeff Beck's Blow By Blow, wouldn't you?
Yeah, that one and Wired. My first band in high school covered "Freeway Jam" (everyone did that one!) and "Led Boots". I also liked There And Back with Simon Phillips and of course, Guitar Shop with Terry Bozzio (possibly my favorite work by Bozzio).

Dixie Dregs were another favorite of that time, and they sure were a genre-bending little outfit!

I was just thinking today that I have never been in a band that plays music that I listen to for pleasure. That's pretty weird, isn't it?
Is it? It's true for me, too. I listen to a lot of electronic music and hook-laden pop stuff like Massive Attack, Paul Oakenfold, Pheonix, TV On The Radio, Metric, etc...

My new emerging favorite: Crash Kings. Some really cool song writing. They're a 3-piece without a guitar player: Keyboard guy (mostly piano sounds) who sings like a cross between Jack White and Freddie Mercury, his brother playing bass (all distorted and cool to help make up for not having a guitar player, I guess), and a pretty cool drummer: 26" kick, rack, floor, big Paiste's. Great band.

I don't play anything that sounds anything like those bands, unfortunately. Seems like all the cool bands are young and hungry and want to hit the road right away. Almost sucks being old and settled down. Almost!
 
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Pollyanna

Platinum Member
Yeah, that one and Wired. My first band in high school covered "Freeway Jam" (everyone did that one!) and "Led Boots". I also liked There And Back with Simon Phillips and of course, Guitar Shop with Terry Bozzio (possibly my favorite work by Bozzio).

Dixie Dregs were another favorite of that time, and they sure were a genre-bending little outfit!
Haha Freeway Jam. I always thought You Know What I Mean was an underrated cool little funky number - such an "up" vibe.

I had a Dregs album - forgot the name, but they were a great band.

Also long been a slobberingly keen Steely Dan fan. Herbie Hancock's Headhunters was also a fave, especially Sly and Watermelon Man - funky funky funky!

I got started with fusion because I used to do schoolwork to music and couldn't concentrate once the singer started. Went to the record shop and asked about instrumental music. He gave me Mahavishnu's Birds of Fire. In hindsight, t was as though I took the red pill and saw just how deep the rabbit hole goes ...


Is it? It's true for me, too. I listen to a lot of electronic music and hook-laden pop stuff like Massive Attack, Paul Oakenfold, Pheonix, TV On The Radio, Metric, etc...
What you're listening to is much more rocky than my music, also much more current, although I can see the appeal of the Crash Kings etc. Generally, my favourite music tends to be esoteric, although I'm a sucker for sweet melodies and catchy rhythms :)
 

MikeM

Platinum Member
What you're listening to is much more rocky than my music, also much more current, although I can see the appeal of the Crash Kings etc.
I'm blasting some Meshuggah at the moment which is total double kick metal mayhem - that dude is a super scary drummer, but groovy as all giddy-up! I need it to stay awake - I've been at my cubicle for 27 hours straight. My 2nd all-nighter in 3 days! I can hardly type much less think anymore... Bring on the weekend!!
 

Drums101

Senior Member
Matthias, there's was a long thread on this that you'll probably find interesting: http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54159

I never got the Neil Peart thing, myself. In my prog fan days he never gave give me a kick like Bill Bruford, Mike Giles, Carl Palmer, Aynsley Dunbar or Terry Bozzio - guys with very individual drumming voices. To me, Neil always just sounded like a very good conventional rock drummer by comparison. Not sure if anyone will relate to this but that's how I felt then, and still feel today.
Finally, someone who doesn't think much of Neil Peart.
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
Finally, someone who doesn't think much of Neil Peart.
It's hard for me to say I "don't think much" of him. Neil's one helluva drummer but I find other prog drummers much more satisfying. All thoroughly subjective, of course.

Top people in all fields always end up being overrated - fame has it's own economies of scale where the more famous you are, the more you dominate discussions in the media which makes you more famous again. So you hear talk as though there's daylight between the top person and his/her peers whereas, in reality, the top person may be just a whisker ahead, if at all.

This dynamic happens with all of the standard drum heroes you see on this site. Someone will turn up who's so irritated by the over-rating that they overreact and underrate the drum hero. Then there's a big argument until everyone's too worn out to fight any more :)

It also happens at times in discussions about jazz on the forum, occasionally with spectacular results. Bodies strewn on the battlefield and metaphorical blood spattered everywhere ...

Hope you enjoy the thread, Matthias :)
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
Yeah yeah, interesting at the beginning, then it gets a bit irritating, as many threads of that kind... :)
Yup, you end up with lots of comments saying pretty well the same thing, just with different words, trying to find the magic wording that will convince the unconvincable :)
 
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