New pedal for a Speed King loyalist?

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
The effective length is constantly changing, so it's called effective. The physical (material) length does not change.
I'm using the chain/strap/linkage as the unchanged length. It isn't factored in being that it's length remains constant. Yet it is what transfers work from the footboard to the cam. This is the length I'm referring to.


Do you know what I'm measuring? How can you say this is the wrong measurement? And what exactly do you want to measure?
I'm not saying you are measuring wrong. I'm saying the footboard doesn't travel vertically, it travels in an arc. So if someone were to put a tape measure on the floor and measure the up and down, it isn't the same distance as the length of arc where the linkage and footboard meet.

I think we are on the same page, just words getting in the way. Perhaps I'll draw a diagram.
 

cbphoto

Gold Member
I'm using the chain/strap/linkage as the unchanged length.
I'm digging the convo, but can we also include direct drive mechanics? The OP is asking about Speed King alternatives, and I assume that means direct drive (although, when I went from my Speed King to a Camco it was a revelation in power and control).
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
I'm wondering in a blindfold test if anyone can feel the difference between a DD pedal and a chain/sprocket pedal. I had a SK for many years and I don't know that I could tell the diff between a SK and a DW 9000 blindfolded. I'm not getting all the Direct Drive hoopla. What are the advantages supposed to be again?
Also, Neilage, the OP, seems like he is out of the conversation and is holding out for the possible new Speed King to be available.
Me, I'm skeptical with new models. In my experience, a new model of anything has bugs that need to be worked out.
There's too many tried and true things to choose from.
 
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Odd-Arne Oseberg

Platinum Member
I play a Yamaha FP9500D at work all the time. It plays easily and it's not expensive either. Maybe try that one out.

My DW 9000 with chain is dependant on a slightly different technique. I haven't experimentet that much with DD pedals. I think those I've tried are easy to play I just generally like the looser feel, right now anyway, as it correlates more to the way I use my hands.
 

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
IMG_20191026_105152.jpg

Okay, red is the footboard and beater at rest. Green is at full stroke. The giant circle is how the footboard moves if allowed to travel 360 degrees. I'm taking the degree of travel of the footboard and dividing it by 360. This gives me the fraction to multiply the circumfrence by to get the distance traveled by the footboard, the black line with arrows.

I'm doing the same with the cam and beater. I'm measuring the angle of travel of the beater in degrees, the black line with arrows. Just like the footboard, I'm dividing by 360 to get the fraction to multiply the cam circumference by. This gives me the distance of travel of the cam. I now have a ratio. I'm not including the chain/strap/DD linkage because that length doesn't change.
 

Rock Salad

Junior Member
And what about the spring cam too?
Then, on a direct drive, the positioning of the linkage on its own radius make a big difference too I would bet- with the pedal being so much longer and on a completely different radius.
Also wouldn't moving ones foot backward or forward even just a little completely change the ratio of leverage?15721075017746056656038414358103.jpg
Also depend on the drum's hoop too, a beater hitting close to perpendicular will probably rebound more cleanly than an angled strike.
No wonder so many say, "you got to go try them out." Way too many things involved to even guess acurately.
 
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SYMBOLIC DEATH

Senior Member
Also wouldn't moving ones foot backward or forward even just a little completely change the ratio of leverage?
This is what I was thinking, I love this discussion by the way.
The ratio of the pedal doesn't change, but where your foot is on the footboard will change the "feel" of the pedal, so wouldn't that make the ratio the ratio meaningless.
Would a more realistic measure for the footboard length be from where the "sweet spot" is?
I know that my feet move up and down the footboard depending on what I'm trying to do/tempo I'm playing at, and generally the point of pressure is on the middle third/back half of the footboard, and never out towards the toe end of the footboard.
It's almost like we need 2 ratios for pedals.e that measures the mechanical/absolute ratio, based on the dimensions of the pedal parts, and then a effective/perceived ratio based on where we put our feet.
I'm just thinking out loud here.
 
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Skilas

Member
I'm digging the convo, but can we also include direct drive mechanics? The OP is asking about Speed King alternatives, and I assume that means direct drive (although, when I went from my Speed King to a Camco it was a revelation in power and control).
It can be anything, not just direct drive. Main thing the gear ratio is right.
 

Skilas

Member
Okay, red is the footboard and beater at rest. Green is at full stroke. The giant circle is how the footboard moves if allowed to travel 360 degrees. I'm taking the degree of travel of the footboard and dividing it by 360. This gives me the fraction to multiply the circumfrence by to get the distance traveled by the footboard, the black line with arrows.

I'm doing the same with the cam and beater. I'm measuring the angle of travel of the beater in degrees, the black line with arrows. Just like the footboard, I'm dividing by 360 to get the fraction to multiply the cam circumference by. This gives me the distance of travel of the cam. I now have a ratio. I'm not including the chain/strap/DD linkage because that length doesn't change.
This procedure is not suitable. This is an angular ratio that says little because the gear ratio is constantly changing. An integral measurement like this does not work. Why? Everyone starts with the beater angle where it suits him. The one at 30 ° the other at 45 ° or 60 °. This always means a different result depending on the beater angle. I have repeatedly said why I take the gear ratio at the end of the movement. Because it is most important and best characterizes a pedal.
 

Skilas

Member
This is what I was thinking, I love this discussion by the way.
The ratio of the pedal doesn't change, but where your foot is on the footboard will change the "feel" of the pedal, so wouldn't that make the ratio the ratio meaningless.
Would a more realistic measure for the footboard length be from where the "sweet spot" is?
I know that my feet move up and down the footboard depending on what I'm trying to do/tempo I'm playing at, and generally the point of pressure is on the middle third/back half of the footboard, and never out towards the toe end of the footboard.
It's almost like we need 2 ratios for pedals.e that measures the mechanical/absolute ratio, based on the dimensions of the pedal parts, and then a effective/perceived ratio based on where we put our feet.
I'm just thinking out loud here.
You do not just think loud, you think right. We can influence the gear ratio of our play but not the gear ratio of the pedal. That's correct. Works only with heel up but helps a lot. And yes, the "sweet spot" is the best orientation. If you go forwards it gets "slower" and softer, you go backwards, it gets "faster" and harder.
 
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MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
This procedure is not suitable. This is an angular ratio that says little because the gear ratio is constantly changing. An integral measurement like this does not work. Why? Everyone starts with the beater angle where it suits him. The one at 30 ° the other at 45 ° or 60 °. This always means a different result depending on the beater angle. I have repeatedly said why I take the gear ratio at the end of the movement. Because it is most important and best characterizes a pedal.
Okay, I don't get it. Just about all pedals can be customized. If one sets beater angle, footboard angle, spring tension, and can adjust cam settings, how can one get a number that is solid for that pedal? Is your number a factory settings start point?

Do you have any diagrams or formulas you can present?
 

Skilas

Member
Okay, I don't get it. Just about all pedals can be customized. If one sets beater angle, footboard angle, spring tension, and can adjust cam settings, how can one get a number that is solid for that pedal? Is your number a factory settings start point?

Do you have any diagrams or formulas you can present?
Each cam gets its own gear ratio. If infinitely adjustable then from ... to .... I have lots of diagrams and formulas but they are only for me. If I think it's right, then I'll present some
 

Skilas

Member
Skilas, just for my personal curiosity: could you provide the numbers for the two pedals I have played most with over my years of drumming?

This would be these two pedals:

Pearl P880
Pearl P-2000 „Eliminator“, Power Shifter in medium position as set by factory, black cam
Same as above, white cam.

One last detail question: did Pearl change anything in these ratios from the original black Elis to the Redline versions?
P 880 : 8
P-2000 Black : 8,8
White : 7,5

I do not know if Pearl changed something, but I do not think there was anything worth mentioning.
 

TJK

Well-known member
How about a foot plate that has another floating plate mounted on top of it? Now I have been thinking about this for a while and it would be possible to mount a floating metal disk or shape mimicking the bottom foot plate. You would somehow affix a ball bearing assembly that would sandwich in between the plates somehow allowing frictionless sliding of your foot.
 

Darth Vater

Senior Member
I played a Speed King for close to 30 years. I finally switched to a DW5000. Action was good but I didn't like the wide base or the footboard with the raised numerals. Next up was the chain drive Mapex Falcon. It's a bullseye for me. Narrow base, smooth footboard, and you can set it up with direct drive, strap, or chain. Comes with a nice cordura case too.
 

incrementalg

Gold Member
Can't say anything about anything, but if you like the old Speed King, you'll LOVE the new one! I mean, IF there is one...
IF there is ever to be a new one I’m interested! I had one as a teen and into early 20s and never found a pedal as satisfying. Dunno why but there was something tactile in that old school direct drive that I couldn’t get elsewhere.

Keeping my eyes open...IF there’s to be another!
 

OSDrums

Active member
P 880 : 8
P-2000 Black : 8,8
White : 7,5
Thanks - interesting as I can put these numbers in relation to what my experience is with this pedals. In another thread about the PowerShifter Pedal you mentioned these numbers for the effect of the PowerShifter settings: "Rear 8.5, middle 8.75, front 8.9. " Can I transfer these numbers to the P-2000? That would give me:
P-2000 black cam: rear 8.55, middle 8.8, front 8.95
P-2000 white cam: rear 7.25, middle 7.5, front 7.65
If these numbers are nearly correct the 8.0 of the P880 ist the only setting the P2000 can not get exactly...:)

Edit: in another thread you wrote about the numbers: "It ranges from under 5 to over 9. The higher the number the faster but with less power." This does not exactly translate to what my experience with the mentioned two pedals is: compared to the P2000 the P880 was way faster to play but had less power on impact on the head. The P2000 had lots of power, but was a little slower to play. Given your numbers it should have been the other way around. It might also be that the "faster" you use means the beater is faster than on other pedals with lower numbers - that would not translate to what I understand when talking about a fast pedal: for me a pedal is fast, when I can play it fast without effort.
 
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Skilas

Member
P-2000 black cam: rear 8.55, middle 8.8, front 8.95
P-2000 white cam: rear 7.25, middle 7.5, front 7.65
correctly
It might also be that the "faster" you use means the beater is faster than on other pedals with lower numbers - that would not translate to what I understand when talking about a fast pedal: for me a pedal is fast, when I can play it fast without effort.
"Faster" means "Faster" geometry. That means with these examples: Footboard 1 ° (input), Beater P-2000 8,8 ° P-880 8 ° (output). Numbers do not lie. If you want to compare pedals in practice then all other factors must be identical. Beater and extension length, spring tension, footboard angle while hitting the head.
Heavier beater or longer extention length: slower, more power (and vice versa). Higher spring tension: faster, less power (and vice versa). Footboard angle (hitting): higher than your sweet point: slower, more power (and vice versa).
I hope I could help.
 
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