New pedal for a Speed King loyalist?

harryconway

Platinum Member
$ 299 really ? maybe I should grease up the 2 originals and 1 2000's reissue and sell them! Before Bermuda spills some more beans of new newer reissues that might be coming or not.
You almost never see one of the reissues for sale. I always figured most guys that play the Speed King as their main pedal play the newer reissue. The older ones, they're always up for sale ..... but 40+ years on a pedal .... I know what 40+ years has done to me .....
40
Do the originals really play that much different from the reissue. My understanding was the reissue has a bushing where the connecting link attaches (so no squeak) ..... but other than that ..... they're pretty much same-same. Perhaps that's not true?

I know what I'd like to see on a new Ludwig Speed King pedal. A floor plate.
 

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mrfingers

Senior Member
The Perfect Balance is not the right replacement for the SK. The SK has a gear ratio of 6.9, so a (really) perfectly balanced pedal, while the JoJo pedal is clearly in the direction of sprinter with 8.6(P-890 even 8.75). The feel of the SK can not be found today, so you should take what is comparable. This is a gear ratio pedal around 7. My suggestion is Iron Cobra Power Glide or DW 5000 Accelerator. But there are also other pedals in this area. And do not forget: whether chain, strap, direct drive, linear, eccentric, etc. does not matter. Only gear ratio counts.
Never thought about this. How do you figure ratios?
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
The Perfect Balance is not the right replacement for the SK. The SK has a gear ratio of 6.9, so a (really) perfectly balanced pedal, while the JoJo pedal is clearly in the direction of sprinter with 8.6(P-890 even 8.75). The feel of the SK can not be found today, so you should take what is comparable. This is a gear ratio pedal around 7. My suggestion is Iron Cobra Power Glide or DW 5000 Accelerator. But there are also other pedals in this area. And do not forget: whether chain, strap, direct drive, linear, eccentric, etc. does not matter. Only gear ratio counts.
(Said like the Joker about Michael Keaton's Batman):

Where DOES he get all that wonderful gear ratio data?

It's really a great way to categorize pedals, on paper at least.
 

Skilas

Member
Never thought about this. How do you figure ratios?
The gear ratio here is the ratio between effective footboard length and effective drive lever. For centrally mounted round cams it is easier because there is an effective drive lever = radius. If people are interested then I am ready to deliver details.

Where DOES he get all that wonderful gear ratio data?
It's my own database, built up over many years. You have to measure the pedal and then calculate. Anyone can do it with a little practice.

It's really a great way to categorize pedals, on paper at least.
I have been saying it for a long time and will keep saying it. In "Modern Mythology" you can find more about this topic.
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
The gear ratio here is the ratio between effective footboard length and effective drive lever. For centrally mounted round cams it is easier because there is an effective drive lever = radius. If people are interested then I am ready to deliver details.


It's my own database, built up over many years. You have to measure the pedal and then calculate. Anyone can do it with a little practice.


I have been saying it for a long time and will keep saying it. In "Modern Mythology" you can find more about this topic.
Thank you for that great information/research. It raises at least a few questions. Is this for your own edification or are you an inventor?

I'm assuming that this must mean that you've been able to measure different pedals. Fascinating. You've owned all the pedals you've measured?

Fascinating. I've never heard of a gear ratio measurement for a pedal.

It's like being able to quantify the feel of a pedal before buying I'm guessing.

In addition to the great science, WHAT a marketing angle.
 
Thank you for that great information/research. It raises at least a few questions. Is this for your own edification or are you an inventor?

I'm assuming that this must mean that you've been able to measure different pedals. Fascinating. You've owned all the pedals you've measured?

Fascinating. I've never heard of a gear ratio measurement for a pedal.

It's like being able to quantify the feel of a pedal before buying I'm guessing.

In addition to the great science, WHAT a marketing angle.
Larry, the 1984-85 Tama catalog talks about gear ratios for their pedals starting on page 26. ( what they refered to as foot pressure to angle ratio). Too big to attach here, but can be found online. In the catalog, they show this for their various pedals of that time, including the Camco pedal. Check it out.

 

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
Fascinating. I've never heard of a gear ratio measurement for a pedal.
You can't have a gear ratio with only one gear. You need at least 2 for a gear ratio, i.e. 2:1. To calculate a gear ratio, you count the teeth of the gears and divide the driven gear by the drive gear. So if the driven gear has 45 teeth and the drive gear has 10, you have a gear ratio of 4.5:1.

You can measure cam rotation vs pedal depression, but this is the downward travel of a lever against the rotation of a pulley. It's a measure of distances. I see what Skilas is getting at, I just wish he would stop referring to it as a gear ratio as it is not. It's called mechanical advantage. For example, the footboard travels downward 1". A round cam with a diameter of 1.5" has a circumference of approximately 4.75" (for simplicity). If that cam rotates 120 degrees for that 1" of footboard travel, you have a mechanical advantage of 1.25:1. Another way to think about it is the cam travels 1" for every 0.8" of footboard travel. This is the simplest form.

If you really wanna complicate things, for an accelerator cam you have to calculate distance of footboard travel for each profile of the cam to get the true number. Sure you can do like the round cam, but that won't be correct since diameter vs travel changes as the cam profile changes.

To make things even worse, since the footboard is fixed in it's rearward location, the chain/strap/linkage doesn't pull consistently straight down. As the footboard travels downward, the front of it gets closer to the head. This creates an arc that the chain/strap/linkage follows, and this is the distance of travel you would actually measure for footboard depression. So now you must measure footboard length, double it and multiply by pi to get this circumference. Next figure the degree of travel of the footboard. This number divided by 360 will give you what you divide total circumference by to get the distance. So, again keeping it simple, if the total circumference of the footboard when allowed to rotate 360 degrees is 30", and your footboard travels 12 degrees, that's 1/30th, or 1" of travel.

So between a cam with one or more profiles, and footboard travel in an arc in relation to cam profile(s), you can calculate mechanical advantage. If you really want to. Or you can let your foot figure it out, as most people won't want to do or even understand the math and physics, even if it is presented to them on the box.

And yet a number still tells us nothing. You can still get the same result for two completely different pedals. Just like 3x4=12, so does 2x6, and 1x12, and 0.5x24.
 

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
I forgot to add above, in order to find distance of travel for the cam, you have to measure the degrees the beater travels from at rest to head impact. The accelerator cam needs two measurements as the cam profile changes

Skilas, please don't read this as I am picking on you. I think the measurements and data are cool. I just don't see most people getting it, or even caring for that matter since its a ton of somewhat complicated math. If you don't have measurements for the Pearl P900 PowerShifter I can get them to you if you want.

Might make for some funny arguments for the ignorant though. "My pedal is better because the number is bigger!" Kind of a horsepower war for the drum crowd.
 

cbphoto

Gold Member
Thank you, Prof. Polack. 😀

Now, what about direct drive linkages? Especially that tricky sliding adjustment on the Tama pedal.

 

Skilas

Member
You can't have a gear ratio with only one gear. You need at least 2 for a gear ratio
You have the two components a gear need: Drive or Input (footboard) and Output(Cam)
To calculate a gear ratio, you count the teeth of the gears and divide the driven gear by the drive gear. So if the driven gear has 45 teeth and the drive gear has 10, you have a gear ratio of 4.5:1.
And what is, for example with belt transmissions? Are you counting teeth as well? A gear ratio is defined by the ratio between radius 1 and radius 2. The ratio of teeth T1/T2 corresponds exactly to the ratio R1 / R2 (if there are teeth). In your example 4,5.
I see what Skilas is getting at, I just wish he would stop referring to it as a gear ratio as it is not.
There is no reason, because I know what I say.
To make things even worse, since the footboard is fixed in it's rearward location, the chain/strap/linkage doesn't pull consistently straight down. As the footboard travels downward, the front of it gets closer to the head.
What do you mean, why is it called "effective lenght"? The gear ratio and the effektive lenght varies during movement and I take the ratio when hitting the head, because most important.
And yet a number still tells us nothing. You can still get the same result for two completely different pedals. Just like 3x4=12, so does 2x6, and 1x12, and 0.5x24.
That really does not mean anything to us. Do not multiply but divide. It's called ratio, not product.
If you don't have measurements for the Pearl P900 PowerShifter I can get them to you if you want.
"Pearl Powershifter double bass drum pedal good starter?" #10
 
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Skilas

Member
Larry, the 1984-85 Tama catalog talks about gear ratios for their pedals starting on page 26. ( what they refered to as foot pressure to angle ratio). Too big to attach here, but can be found online. In the catalog, they show this for their various pedals of that time, including the Camco pedal. Check it out.

What is in the Tama catalog is something else. The graph shows the foot force over the beater angle. And of course it starts at 0. There, the spring plays a big role, at the gear ratio none
 

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
Thank you, Prof. Polack. 😀

Now, what about direct drive linkages? Especially that tricky sliding adjustment on the Tama pedal.

The sliding linkage still operates as a circle. The radius changes as you move the linkage in and out. Your effective radius will be from the center of the crossbar to the center of the linkage/DD connection. Everything else still works the same.

Since a circle with a smaller radius has a smaller circumference than a larger circle, the distance of travel over the same degrees will be shorter. Ergo, moving the linkage in should make the pedal faster when the same amount of force is applied.
 

OSDrums

Well-known member
Skilas, just for my personal curiosity: could you provide the numbers for the two pedals I have played most with over my years of drumming?

This would be these two pedals:

Pearl P880
Pearl P-2000 „Eliminator“, Power Shifter in medium position as set by factory, black cam
Same as above, white cam.

One last detail question: did Pearl change anything in these ratios from the original black Elis to the Redline versions?
 

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
You have the two components a gear need: Drive or Input (footboard) and downforce or Output(Cam)
Yes, but it's a lever and pulley, not one gear acting on the other. That's my problem, your term is wrong, not your thinking.

And what is, for example with belt transmissions?
This is a drive ratio, again not a gear ratio.

What do you mean, why is it called "effective lenght"? The gear ratio and the effektive lenght varies during movement and I take the ratio when hitting the head, because most important.
You are correct, the effective length doesn't change. The path it takes is not up and down though. It follows the arc of the footboard. This is the proper measurement.

That really does not mean anything to us. Do not multiply but divide. It's called ratio, not product.
This was just to demonstrate that the same answer can be achieved with different numbers. I'll do it with division this time:
2=8÷4, or 6÷3, or 4÷2, or 1÷0.5

Pearl Powershifter double bass drum pedal good starter?" #10
I'll go back and read it again.

I'm still confused about your numbering. Would 10 be faster than an 8? How does your number relate to my foot vs beater travel. Seriously I'm curious, not being snotty at all. I find all the math and physics of this little piece of gear fascinating.
 

Skilas

Member
Yes, but it's a lever and pulley, not one gear acting on the other. That's my problem, your term is wrong, not your thinking.
They are connected with each other (chain, strap etc) so they interact.
This is a drive ratio, again not a gear ratio.
I think everyone understands what is meant even if it is linguistically incorrect.
You are correct, the effective length doesn't change.
The effective length is constantly changing, so it's called effective. The physical (material) length does not change.
The path it takes is not up and down though. It follows the arc of the footboard. This is the proper measurement.
Do you know what I'm measuring? How can you say this is the wrong measurement? And what exactly do you want to measure?
This was just to demonstrate that the same answer can be achieved with different numbers. I'll do it with division this time:
2=8÷4, or 6÷3, or 4÷2, or 1÷0.5
Your answer had no relation to the topic.
 
What is in the Tama catalog is something else. The graph shows the foot force over the beater angle. And of course it starts at 0. There, the spring plays a big role, at the gear ratio none
There is the shape of the cam that comes into play in those graphs, as there is more force required at the end of the stroke for an accelerator type cam vs. A round cam as stated earlier. And as stated earlier, you need two gears to have a gear ratio. End of the day, find out what works and use it. Interesting topic.
 
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