New Dream Theater Album Stream/Drum Sound

I agree on Jordan Rudess being a bit soulless.

I think Awake is a brilliant album but I can't sit through any of their newer albums without cringing a bit.

And I thought the reality tv style search for a drummer really exposed their business/commercial mentality.

I edited some negative comments from this post but I will allow one word to resurface: cheesy.

Prog fans: You can do better than dt!
 
my guess is more likely that DT & co are just aiming for a contemporary plastic / mechanistic sound. A lot of young people dig it for the same reason my generation liked a more raw sound.

It's a shame they missed, then...
 
Re: The new Dream Theater drum sound

I agree. Like... going back to Falling Into Infinity.

I love Falling Into Infinity, but there were a lot of bad production choices made for that record. You Not Me has probably the worst chorus I've ever heard in any song, ever; it has no business being there. The FIF demos are worth listening to - You Or Me flows much better with its original chorus, and it features two of my favorite DT songs ever - Raise The Knife and The Way It Used To Be.

There's more than just a production change over the years. The reason I love Falling Into Infinity (or the demos) so much is because the band left so much collective space for the songs to breathe. In The Presence of Enemies Pt 1 certainly feels like it has as many notes in four minutes as FIF has in the entire album. John Petrucci's guitar parts acted more as a harmonic pad than his typical dry rhythm or fast, clean, and usually appropriate lead parts. And there was a whole lot of proper dirty B3, which hasn't happened since Jordan Rudess entered the band. That's fine that everyone plays differently, but I just wish they'd let the songs tell the story, rather than just the playing.

Back in the day, they would work out songs on the road - come up with some bits, try them out during soundcheck, let it stew a bit, then revisit those bits and eventually turn them into a song. In my opinion, it's much more effective to work out a collection of songs when the band has become familiar with the songs. Maybe not quite to the point where it's muscle memory, but at least to the point where everyone can relax and play their parts as smoothly as possible, when they don't have to worry about which part is coming up next.

But I guess that's just not Dream Theater these days.

And holy shit, who thought that snare sound was a good idea?

(Falling Into Infinity and Six Degrees are my favorite-sounding DT records. Kevin Shirley mixes one hell of a good-sounding record. I wish they'd use him again.)
 
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Re: The new Dream Theater drum sound

Was MM disappointed with the sound? Who knows? Maybe one when he's old he'll be interviewed and say, "Man, the sound on that album was diabolical" but my guess is more likely that DT & co are just aiming for a contemporary plastic / mechanistic sound. A lot of young people dig it for the same reason my generation liked a more raw sound.

How much is the company and how much is DT's taste is a good question.

With top groups like DT who have more creative freedom than most I've tended to assume that if any music they played sucked (to my ear then it's more taste than screwup. It's hard to know at times.

If you read his facebook posts and watched his videos on his gear, you would see that he does invest much time in getting his drum sound. He even has said that they got "killer" drum sound on this album. I respect him for being interested in the drum production, but I hate his tone preferences.. I also have a strong dislike of pearl drums, they are so incredibly dead - especially with the heads he used on the album.. Remo CS Black dots. To me the toms are dead, the snare sounds awful, and the bass drums are way too scooped. So much low end and click - no mids. I just feel like the drums are dead and overly compressed. I like the songs and I think the playing is great. To those who are unimpressed by his fills and say "oh they sound no different than what portnoy was doing" - you're wrong. Mangini's parts are way harder to play and require much more independence and speed, as well as dynamic control. I can play any of Portnoy's dt songs when I take the time to learn them note for note.. I've tried mastering Mangini's stuff and I can't come close to properly replicating it. Sorry for the rant, my conclusion is that Mangini is a monster, but his tone sucks. I love the direction of this album.
 
I agree. Like... going back to Falling Into Infinity.

I've always thought Falling into Infinity was vastly under rated by the majority of the DT fan base, and even the band themselves.


I agree on Jordan Rudess being a bit soulless.
It's always been the knock on him. Incredible chops, but not enough soul. In many ways, DT kicking out Derek and getting Jordan was once of the worst things to happen to the band musically, even though I do like Train of Thought, and most of Octavarium.

There's more than just a production change over the years. The reason I love Falling Into Infinity (or the demos) so much is because the band left so much collective space for the songs to breathe. In The Presence of Enemies Pt 1 certainly feels like it has as many notes in four minutes as FIF has in the entire album. John Petrucci's guitar parts acted more as a harmonic pad than his typical dry rhythm or fast, clean, and usually appropriate lead parts. And there was a whole lot of proper dirty B3, which hasn't happened since Jordan Rudess entered the band. That's fine that everyone plays differently, but I just wish they'd let the songs tell the story, rather than just the playing.

Back in the day, they would work out songs on the road - come up with some bits, try them out during soundcheck, let it stew a bit, then revisit those bits and eventually turn them into a song. In my opinion, it's much more effective to work out a collection of songs when the band has become familiar with the songs. Maybe not quite to the point where it's muscle memory, but at least to the point where everyone can relax and play their parts as smoothly as possible, when they don't have to worry about which part is coming up next.

Yes, yes and yes.

When Derek was in the band, he had actual vintage Leslie cabinets on stage, along with several other cabinets. Different patches ran through different cabinets, so you really go that sense of air moving. It gave his sound more grit, and more soul. Jordan runs everything direct, which makes everything super clean, to the point it's just too clean.

And the whole getting away from writing on the road, and no longer having songs worked out before entering the studio has been their musical downfall. Songs used to breathe, There used to be room for the vocals. Ideas were fully developed. When Porntoy left, I though maybe this will inspire them to go back to the way it used to be, as Portnoy was the main proponent of writing everything in the studio as it was being recorded. And they did do that to some on the last album. So it's disappointing for this album they went back to writing in the studio. They claim it keeps the ideas fresh and they get stuff in the moment, but it comes at the sacrifice of development. And as I said, they don't let the songs breathe, and leave no room for vocals, James ends up sounding like they put a gun to head and told him to just sing whatever words the put in front of him.

I had gotten to the point where I thought James had just lost it, because the vocals on Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds were so terrible. But then I heard his solo album and it was like, whoah, he can still sing, if the music is actually written for vocals and if the song doesn't have a million notes in every verse, and if he's actually allowed to not have a gun to his head in the studio. But for whatever reason, John and Jordan went right back to marginalizing the vocals this time. Might as well just make 70's fusion music then.

Although as much as I've grown tired of them, oddly, their popularity seems to have increased over the last 4 albums. They have played much, much bigger venues on the last 3-4 tours then they ever did on previous tours.
 
The cynic in me wants to say; taking the $15 or $50 from a teenager for a CD or show, times a million, is more important than sounding good.

Music is business first, art later.
 
IIn many ways, DT kicking out Derek and getting Jordan was once of the worst things to happen to the band musically, even though I do like Train of Thought, and most of Octavarium.
Metropolis Pt. II is my favourite DT work, and it heavily features JR for the first time!
When Porntoy left, I though maybe this will inspire them to go back to the way it used to be
So I have to ask myself, do people write it intentionally after all?
 
Mike just shared a video on facebook that gives a clue on his drumkit sounds without processing (captured with a camera mic though).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzmrjnODMsQ&feature=youtu.be

DAD - thanks for the info on Petrucci being the producer of that album. Strange sound he was going for.

I won't even pretend to understand how Mike's mind works. His mind, and indeed drumming ability is just out of this world.
 
I won't even pretend to understand how Mike's mind works. His mind, and indeed drumming ability is just out of this world.
His DVD tutorial should hit the market very soon and might help in that understanding process (although total overkill for most drummers I guess, haha). But to feel that example from the video in 4/4 is remarkable to say the least.
 
His DVD tutorial should hit the market very soon and might help in that understanding process (although total overkill for most drummers I guess, haha). But to feel that example from the video in 4/4 is remarkable to say the least.

Oh I think that even with his video, I'd be lost. I had the distinct pleasure of seeing Mike during one of his drum clinics last September; he played a bunch of songs throughout his career, and gave some insight as to how he counts and internalizes the music he's playing. I honestly couldn't follow him, as hard as I tried. He would count out some ridiculous patterns as he played them, then stop counting and challenge everyone to keep counting and see if they could find the one. I've never seen a room full of drummers look so clueless before.

I know I sure as hell didn't feel the 4/4 pulse of that beat. I think I'll re-watch it to see if I can pick up on it...
 
Nothing against Mangini, and while Dream Theater used to be one my favorite bands, I have to say;

In terms of song writing:
the new Fates Warning album >>>>>>>> new Dream Theater album.

As for the drumming on the new Fates Warning album, Bobby Jarzombek not only has great chops, but what really impresses me if he knowns when just to stay out of the way and when to not fill up every bar with a ton of notes.

Anyway, if you like prog metal, I can't not recommend Darkness in a Different Light enough.
 
While we're at it - Symphony X have perfectly embedded vocals. Regardless of the crazy interludes/solo stuff etc - the vocals never suffer. Actually when I listened to the new DT album my impression was that they were copying some Symphony X trademarks. That is, they were trying... difference ;-) They didn't get it as good as the original. I'm not sure why they even tried - some would notice this. Or did they think that their newer fans aren't aware of DT borrowing trademark stuff from other bands?

Also, check out the overall mix and drum sound on Sym X albums - those drums sound like drums. E.g. no clicky bass drum, no overplaying. In fact, I noticed that 'playing for the band/music' approach of their drummer (Jason Rullo) many years ago as a guitarist - at that time I hadn't been into drums yet but it was still obvious to me. I think Sym X are also more consistent in their sound as compared to DT.

I'll attend the Rock Shop Trommeltage 2013 held by my preferred music store near where I live. That'll be on Oct. 25 and 26 - 2 days of various drummers performing - Mangini is among them (also Weckl, Greb...). Do you have some specific questions that I could forward to him? ;-) (Shiver technique, drum sound/placement? I hope Mike will bring some copies of his new DVD so I could grab one.)
 
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