Neil Peart Plays Buddy Rich

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
I'd not heard of Dennis Chambers until coming here. At the time I thought the biggest chopmeisters around were the other three guys I mentioned. Then I saw him play - OMG not another uber-beast - they're breeding!

I love stuff that cooks like Sister Sadie! (love Dennis's cheeky smile just as the tenor guy with the golliwog haircut starts his solo too :)

Dennis has that combo of power, energy, control and intelligence that I hear from other top power jazzers like Buddy, Tony and Billy. I'm no expert on swing but if a drummer generates that kind of precise energy as Dennis did it puts a smile on my dial. At that point I don't give a rat's @rse what the technical descriptions are.

Few of us have expertise in astrophysics but we can all enjoy looking at the stars :)
 

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
Few of us have expertise in astrophysics but we can all enjoy looking at the stars :)

Nice one Polly! Great quote.

For the record, I very much enjoyed Neil's performance. I get the "he can't swing" comments just as I take on board the fact that I can't Jazz. Doesn't detract from the enjoyment though and my admiration for anyone who pushes their own personal boundries.
 

Muckster

Platinum Member
Let's face it, Neil was in unfamilliar territory playing big band jazz and was handed his hind section. I remember a few Neil clone friends of mine being totally shocked. Neil knew he was in trouble and has talked about it. But what i admire about Neil is he did not quit, learned from the experience and sought out help. He is a better drummer today becuase of that experience.
 

mrmike

Silver Member
Wow! Those clips from Mel Torme and Sammy Davis Jr. are great. I new Mel could play but not like that.

I thought I would mention Mel Torme's drummer for 20 years Donnie Osborne. A super sweet guy who swings his ass off. He was discovered by Buddy Rich as a teenager. Buddy took him under his wing and let him sit in with his band and he eventually landed with Mel. He now lives in Lake Oswego Oregon and every few months makes his way to Seattle to give lessons at Donn Bennett drum studio.

I had the pleasure of taking a lesson with Donnie which he helped me tremendously at swinging the hats. All he really told me was less stick height and open the hats less (something Neil was not doing!) He also showed me the left stick under the hats trick. The lesson went way long as we traded fills and I had a blast. I look forward to doing it again!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjkMcyXmUiw&feature=PlayList&p=2CDA9217E3D65C34&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1
 

Skulmoski

Gold Member
Nice one Polly! Great quote.

For the record, I very much enjoyed Neil's performance. I get the "he can't swing" comments just as I take on board the fact that I can't Jazz. Doesn't detract from the enjoyment though and my admiration for anyone who pushes their own personal boundries.

Yeah, I agree with you; I'm no jazz purist but I enjoyed his BR solo. I haven't been a Rush fan for almost 20 years, but I do appreciate Neil's abilities.

GJS
 

drumtechdad

Gold Member
One of the things this thread reminds me of is that in the early days of rock, many of the great drummers had a background in jazz. I'm thinking Ginger Baker and Mitch Mitchell, but there were others, too. And even if a drummer didn't play jazz he almost certainly had listened to it.

It seems to me that rock was "swingier" in those days. Not swing--swingier.

Now it's oh-so-very square, and not many drummers have any swing in their development.

And you hardly even hear a shuffle anymore, other than in a blues or country band!
 

druid

Silver Member
Oh so true...and crap like "pro tools" does nothing to help with the swinglessness of modern music. But these people can't hear how sterile sounding much of this stuff really sounds. "Well it does not line up visually so let's "fix " it"....stupid.

Neil struggled bigtime on his first BR show...I admired he did not quit on doing it....or dodge doing it....he did better the 2nd time around although he still has that "Neil perfection" thing happening...he needs to relax more and feel it more. I think Rush is a very heady type of muisc to play and relies more on thinking than feeling much of the time.

As for ..."these guys don't swing like Buddy" remarks...yeah...and who does? The entire point is diversity and getting people in there ( especially on the latest show Bozzio,Chad Smith etc...) to try Buddy tunes. And I think limiting your judgement to those who sound exactly like Buddy is just as limiting as playing to a click with protools is in the rock world. Its about the variety...not the exact duplication.

Vinnie's appearance was one of the best versions I have heard yet of these shows yet.

I really enjoyed the latest one with Bozzio, Eerskine,Smith, and Igoe as well.
 

supermac

Senior Member
Got to agree with a lot of the posts.

I've been a massive Neil fan for years and he's been the main influence on my playing.

But...his performance on the latest Buddy DVD ain't so hot, in my opinion.

When I watch someone like Steve Smith swing on his DVD, the difference is immense.

Neil's place as on the greatest ever rock players is assured, but the jazz dabblings - for me - just aren't up to it.
 

Bernhard

Founder Drummerworld
Staff member
Yes, we have to admire Neil for trying and not giving up to achieve a minimum of swing.
I agree what another poster wrote: Why must there be cameras around then during his practice sessions?

On the other hand there is justice:

Read some stories about Buddy Rich taking some hours with a known Rockdrummer to learn or to achieve a really tight Rock Groove. But it never happened. He always had tendency to fall into a triplet-shuffle feel with the Ride and didn't manage to pull out some really steady 16th bassdrum patterns. So from there came his admiration for Steve Gadd. The saying goes, that his swearing was heard through three closed doors and he gave up finally....

Bernhard
 

Average

Senior Member
Sorry, sounds like another guy at another taping of another Modern Drummer DVD to me. He doesn't swing for me in that video. No big deal. Five percent of the kids at Berklee or on this board have chops like that. It doesn't swing for me and I think Buddy would puke if he heard it. He'd sure swear and cuss anyway. My reality.



Closer. Much better! Joey


Joey


Good Gawd!

I had the honor of playing with Bobby Shew (trumpet player second from the left) about a year after that concert was taped. I asked him specifically about the concert and he said it was a lot of fun and that those guys were INCREDIBLE drummers (as you can see for yourself by watching the tape.) Keep in mind, Bobby Shew played with the Buddy Rich big band often and over a long period of time, so it isn't as if he hasn't played with power house drummers before.

My own opinion is that Dennis Chambers played true to his own style in music that was written for an iconic drummer. Dennis Chambers' playing on those tunes was nothing less than remarkable. It wasn't the same as Buddy playing the same tunes but it was another world class drummer playing the tunes to be sure.

Edit: I just rewatched the clip. I had that concert on VHS and literally wore the tape out and it broke. I studied that concert inside and out. Its funny how much of those guys crept into and stayed in my playing over the years. I might have to buy it on DVD and revisit it.
 
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Steamer

Platinum Member
Good Gawd!

I had the honor of playing with Bobby Shew (trumpet player second from the left) about a year after that concert was taped. I asked him specifically about the concert and he said it was a lot of fun and that those guys were INCREDIBLE drummers (as you can see for yourself by watching the tape.) Keep in mind, Bobby Shew played with the Buddy Rich big band often and over a long period of time, so it isn't as if he hasn't played with power house drummers before.

My own opinion is that Dennis Chambers played true to his own style in music that was written for an iconic drummer. Dennis Chambers' playing on those tunes was nothing less than remarkable. It wasn't the same as Buddy playing the same tunes but it was another world class drummer playing the tunes to be sure.

Edit: I just rewatched the clip. I had that concert on VHS and literally wore the tape out and it broke. I studied that concert inside and out. Its funny how much of those guys crept into and stayed in my playing over the years. I might have to buy it on DVD and revisit it.

Amen......................
 

LinearDrummer

Silver Member
Personally I think this Neil playing jazz thang has been beat/bashed/criticized to death....the horse is dead guys!

And that clip was from like 19 frickin 93?
Atleast post a clip from the 2009 concert after hes been practicing/studying with Erskine and lets see if he's any better.

He didn't even want to do it....had to be convinced. Its not like he's posting vids on youtube to get voted Jazz player of the year.
 
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michael drums

Guest
Personally I think this Neil playing jazz thang has been beat/bashed/criticized to death....the horse is dead guys!

And that clip was from like 19 frickin 93?
Atleast post a clip from the 2009 concert after hes been practicing/studying with Erskine and lets see if he's any better.

He didn't even want to do it....had to be convinced. Its not like he's posting vids on youtube to get voted Jazz player of the year.

Absolutely, 100% spot on point, LD!

Couldn't agree more. If you notice, A LOT of the criticism is directed at the top drummers only, because there's no where else for them to go but down. It's human nature to "try" and find flaws in others at the top of their craft, no matter what their craft is. And this is just another example of that.

I don't think NP is ever going to wake up one day and announce to the world that he's switching genres, and is now going to be a "jazz" or "swing" drummer. Though, he is one to challenge himself like that. But he would NEVER consider himself a jazz drummer more than a rock(prog) drummer. Or even a jazz drummer at all.

Come on people, it's a benefit for Buddy Rich. Stop the bashing and try to enjoy the show.

Simple really.
 

Michael McDanial

Senior Member
Absolutely, 100% spot on point, LD!

Couldn't agree more. If you notice, A LOT of the criticism is directed at the top drummers only, because there's no where else for them to go but down. It's human nature to "try" and find flaws in others at the top of their craft, no matter what their craft is. And this is just another example of that.

I don't think NP is ever going to wake up one day and announce to the world that he's switching genres, and is now going to be a "jazz" or "swing" drummer. Though, he is one to challenge himself like that. But he would NEVER consider himself a jazz drummer more than a rock(prog) drummer. Or even a jazz drummer at all.

Come on people, it's a benefit for Buddy Rich. Stop the bashing and try to enjoy the show.

Simple really.

So this thread is just another example of people trying to find flaws about top drummers? So top drummers are beyond criticism and anyone who makes a remark about something that they didn't like about their playing is only trying to find flaws in their playing, correct? What do you propose we should do? Make it a rule that you can't voice your opinion on a drummer unless it is nothing but positive remarks? Everybody has the right to their own opinion, and if somebody doesn't like the way a certain drummer played, they have every right to voice their opinion. It doesn't make them a hater because they don't like something about the way a certain drummer plays.

Sorry, but just because Neil is one of the greats does not mean that he is beyond criticism, No drummer is beyond criticism, and that includes Buddy as well. I personally prefer Gene Krupa's playing to Buddy's. If I were to go and write an article about why I prefer Krupa's playing over Buddy's, does that make me a hater?

BTW, I take it that you have never made a negative remark about another drummer's playing? I would bet the farm on it that you have and I'm sure you still do when you hear a drummer you don't care for.

Maybe the problem is that fans of certain drummers get really pissed when they read or hear people saying something about why they don't like that drummer's playing, because those fans feel that their favorite drummer/drummers are beyond criticism?
 
W

wy yung

Guest
I think comparing musicians is a pointless exercise. Music is not a competition. Many students ask me "Is this guy good? Is that guy better than that other guy?" I tell them that all those guys are good. If not they would not be where they are. Somebody better would replace them.

Neil is a very successful drummer. So was Buddy. One has to admire how Neil is trying to improve. Lessons with a master like Erskine is not a bad way to go about it. Kudos to him.
 
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michael drums

Guest
So this thread is just another example of people trying to find flaws about top drummers? So top drummers are beyond criticism and anyone who makes a remark about something that they didn't like about their playing is only trying to find flaws in their playing, correct? What do you propose we should do? Make it a rule that you can't voice your opinion on a drummer unless it is nothing but positive remarks? Everybody has the right to their own opinion, and if somebody doesn't like the way a certain drummer played, they have every right to voice their opinion. It doesn't make them a hater because they don't like something about the way a certain drummer plays.

Sorry, but just because Neil is one of the greats does not mean that he is beyond criticism, No drummer is beyond criticism, and that includes Buddy as well. I personally prefer Gene Krupa's playing to Buddy's. If I were to go and write an article about why I prefer Krupa's playing over Buddy's, does that make me a hater?

BTW, I take it that you have never made a negative remark about another drummer's playing? I would bet the farm on it that you have and I'm sure you still do when you hear a drummer you don't care for.

Maybe the problem is that fans of certain drummers get really pissed when they read or hear people saying something about why they don't like that drummer's playing, because those fans feel that their favorite drummer/drummers are beyond criticism?

Go ahead and critique all you want. If it makes you feel better to say/post something negative about a certain drummer or whoever you like. But please tell me that it's more than just that you have the "right" to do so. What's the point? How is that value added?

Yes, there are drummers that I'm not a fan of. But you'd lose that farm if you find ANYTHING I've posted here on DW that resembles criticism about another drummers' playing.

No, the problem is "some" of us feel better about themselves to voice their "opinions" out loud. To say that NP doesn't swing does not solve a great mystery that needs to be addressed. STOP comparing drummers! It's NOT a competition.

And if you knew anything about NP, you'd know how humbled he was/is about the Buddy Rich Memorial concerts that he has produced and played in. And how honored he was/is to participate in them.

It doesn't matter WHO I'm a fan of, it serves no purpose to find fault in what they do. And this is no exception.
 
N

Noestre

Guest
If theres someone that critizises Vinnie, I'll bust a cap in yo arses!
 
M

Mediocrefunkybeat

Guest
It doesn't matter WHO I'm a fan of, it serves no purpose to find fault in what they do. And this is no exception.

Sorry, but how does that work? Nobody is beyond critique.

Take an actor you really like. Now, has that actor ever been in a bad film? ALL actors have been in a bad film - so the answer there is a solid yes. Are we allowed to make that point clear? Yes. Does it help the actor improve and choose better films in the future? Yes. Now replace 'actor' with 'musician' or 'drummer'.
 
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Michael McDanial

Senior Member
Go ahead and critique all you want. If it makes you feel better to say/post something negative about a certain drummer or whoever you like. But please tell me that it's more than just that you have the "right" to do so. What's the point? How is that value added?

Yes, there are drummers that I'm not a fan of. But you'd lose that farm if you find ANYTHING I've posted here on DW that resembles criticism about another drummers' playing.

No, the problem is "some" of us feel better about themselves to voice their "opinions" out loud. To say that NP doesn't swing does not solve a great mystery that needs to be addressed. STOP comparing drummers! It's NOT a competition.

And if you knew anything about NP, you'd know how humbled he was/is about the Buddy Rich Memorial concerts that he has produced and played in. And how honored he was/is to participate in them.

It doesn't matter WHO I'm a fan of, it serves no purpose to find fault in what they do. And this is no exception.

So anybody on here that says something about another drummer's playing that he didn't care for is only doing it to make himself/herself feel better?

When I was talking about making negative comments about a drummer that you didn't care for, I wasn't specifically talking about just on this forum, but in life in general. Do you really expect me to believe that you have never said, in any conversation about drums or drummers that you have had with other people, that you didn't care for a certain drummer's playing or that you didn't care for the way they did something on a certain song, or anything else along those lines?

I never said anything negative about Neil as a person. I'm well aware that Neil is a humble person. Where the hell did I ever attack Neil's character? Stop making accusations that you can't back up.

I never compared Neil to Buddy or anybody else. I just said that I agreed with other members that his playing was lacking that swing feel, and you try and twist it into something that it's not.

Sorry, but how does that work? Nobody is beyond critique.

Take an actor you really like. Now, has that actor ever been in a bad film? ALL actors have been in a bad film - so the answer there is a solid yes. Are we allowed to make that point clear? Yes. Does it help the actor improve and choose better films in the future? Yes. Now replace 'actor' with 'musician' or 'drummer'.

Thank you, Mediocrefunkybeat, for clarifying my point.

So, michael drums, does this rule only apply to drummers, or like mediocrefunkybeat said, is it also wrong to criticize an actor or a movie that they were in? Have you never said that you didn't care for a certain actor, or didn't like a certain move? Have you ever said that you didn't like the food at a restaurant you have been? Have you ever read a book that you didn't like? Because according to you, to make such comments is only because you're trying to find fault in something. These comments, according to you, just mean that the person is just hating on the drummer/musician, or actor, movie, chef, author or anybody else, pick a category. Do you expect me to believe that you never said that you didn't like something? Get off your high horse and stop attacking people on here just because they said they didn't care for something about Neil's playing on the video. If anybody here is trying to make themselves feel better by making negative comments, it's you. You're the one trying to make yourself feel better by attacking others because you're a Peart fanatic who can't stand it when somebody says that they didn't care for Neil's playing on this video. As the old blues song goes "Before you accuse me, take a look at yourself".
 
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