Need ideas in getting a song together

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
Howdy. There's a song we do, Love for Sale that's redickulussly lounge ... it makes Joni Mitchell sound like Black Sabbath. There was a time when I disliked music like this but I've succumbed to old fartiness.

Aaanyway, I've basically been laying down drum wallpaper for this tune and I feel like I'm not getting something.

It's just the one texture on the drums from go to whoa and I think I'm playing it too bland ... but I can't think of how to break out of the mold.

All ideas gratefully accepted and, of course, abuse is warmly welcomed :)
 

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hogdaddy

Member
Nice tune. I like it.
I am a new drummer so maybe not a lot of help but I don't care for the drum brushes here maybe a cross stick rim shot?
Again I am not very experienced but going by sound here.
Btw this is my first post.
 

simmsdn

Silver Member
I dig it. Ever think about playing the brush on the snare and a real light stick in the right hand to play some ride patterns as well. Even if it's the same pattern as played on the snare. Might be cool. I really like your playing here, very tasty for the song.
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
Thanks guys. I like to stick with brushes, though, because I think the track is mostly working so I don't want to change that, just find the little x-factors that can take songs to another level.
 

aydee

Platinum Member
Howdy. There's a song we do, Love for Sale that's redickulussly lounge ... it makes Joni Mitchell sound like Black Sabbath. There was a time when I disliked music like this but I've succumbed to old fartiness.

Aaanyway, I've basically been laying down drum wallpaper for this tune and I feel like I'm not getting something.

It's just the one texture on the drums from go to whoa and I think I'm playing it too bland ... but I can't think of how to break out of the mold.

All ideas gratefully accepted and, of course, abuse is warmly welcomed :)
Like your touch, Pol. Nothing wrong with what you did.. quite appropriate, I thought.

If you are bored with what you're doing you could try and intensify the bossa feel with a triplety 16th note riding pattern. Tried to pull out a reference for you and found this dorky guy trying to explain a fill. Forget the fill and look what he is doing on his ride cymbal. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA2mKiA_Vzg

That might juice it up for you. I liked what you did just fine.

...
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
Like your touch, Pol. Nothing wrong with what you did.. quite appropriate, I thought.

If you are bored with what you're doing you could try and intensify the bossa feel with a triplety 16th note riding pattern. Tried to pull out a reference for you and found this dorky guy trying to explain a fill. Forget the fill and look what he is doing on his ride cymbal. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA2mKiA_Vzg

That might juice it up for you. I liked what you did just fine.

...
Haha that poor EV guy got sooo hammered on da Tube - the world is a cruel place!

Ta Abe, I can imagine that idea working well but I ... um ... don't have the, er, technique to play those 16th notes with one hand. If I was on WFD I'd probably be clocking about 600 a minute lol

One thing I did notice on another listen is that, with the final two stops, I'm leaving a space after the first one and playing the fill in the last one ... playing the fill first and leaving the space at the end makes more musical sense.
 

Mark_S

Silver Member
Very nice! I really like your feel. The only thing missing for me is a bit of brush-work on the cymbals perhaps in the more lifted parts of the song - just to lighten it a little, but I don't really know what I'm talking about, just a thought really... you know, just playing a pattern on the ride, but not straight. I can hear it in my head anyway! I personally wouldn't use a stick for it as I think it'd be a little heavy unless it was a really nice light sounding ride. Plus it'd make it a pain to switch between snare and ride. Or if brush wasn't working on the right hand I'd perhaps try flix sticks or rods or whatever they're called.

Sorry about the rambling, lol.

Ohh I bet a ride with rivets would sound lovely too... just another thought!
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
The only thing missing for me is a bit of brush-work on the cymbals perhaps in the more lifted parts of the song - just to lighten it a little,

... Or if brush wasn't working on the right hand I'd perhaps try flix sticks or rods or whatever they're called.

... Ohh I bet a ride with rivets would sound lovely too... just another thought!
Ta Mark. Yes, A tad more cymbal in the brige makes sense. It's tricky because brushes hold very little groove on the cymbals and I'm too klutzy to do a quick switcheroo. I wonder how a mellow crash at the start of the bridges, or maybe just the second bridge, would work? I've never liked rods, though. They always sound so non-mellow. Tak! Tak!

Rest assured, if I had a rivet cymbal it would be used!All this is giving me ideas. Was just thinking there are some accents coming out of the bridge that are screaming to be locked in with rather than played around. Wouldn't mind tossing in subtle fills during the verses either ...
 

Mark_S

Silver Member
I've never liked rods, though. They always sound so non-mellow. Tak! Tak!
Yeah I kinda know what you mean, though I think they aren't so bad when tapping cymbals. The plastic flix seem to offend the least in that way as the strands a pretty fine compared to the chunky wooden ones.

Rest assured, if I had a rivet cymbal it would be used!
Ditto, they do sound so nice. I've seen Todd Sucherman on his DVD use a chain hanging over a cymbal on one of the songs he plays which I think acheives a similar effect? Might be worth playing with (even if outside of this song). I'm not sure what he used, looked like a necklace or something! Hopefully something that doesn't cause cymbal scratches..

Anyway I look forward to hearing version 2!
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
Yeah I kinda know what you mean, though I think they aren't so bad when tapping cymbals. The plastic flix seem to offend the least in that way as the strands a pretty fine compared to the chunky wooden ones.

Ditto, they do sound so nice. I've seen Todd Sucherman on his DVD use a chain hanging over a cymbal on one of the songs he plays which I think acheives a similar effect? Might be worth playing with (even if outside of this song). I'm not sure what he used, looked like a necklace or something! Hopefully something that doesn't cause cymbal scratches..

Anyway I look forward to hearing version 2!
Yes, they sound right at times on the cymbals. I use a Flix brush on the ride cymbal in one song (with mallet on the mounted tom).

Hmm, the chain on cymbal idea sounds good. I imagine a long, very fine chain would work on my 20" Zild. I have a few old broken necklaces around, which could be knotted together ... will check his out ...

Version 2 might take a couple of weeks or so - and hopefully this time our guitarist will get the solo right :)
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
I'm hearing those round wooden things (clave?) hitting each other on beat 2, and the and of 3. Could be played with the left foot but needs a pedal set up for those clave things. I want to hear one more different tone.
 

TTNW

Pioneer Member
Hi Pol,

Very tasty. I think that you almost have the perfect balance to the percussive elements that are the rhythm to this song. As the groove continues, I felt the tension that would cause less experienced players to offer a fill. So, the suggestion for some cymbal kissing is a good one but I don't think the song needs it.

How about a small djembe that you can pull in between your snare and right leg (on a stand that you can tilt - maybe dip the head a little forward and to the right. My ear wanted to hear a light light conga note and toward the end maybe a light conga note with your right thumb and a light slap with the left thumb near the edge of the djembe.

It would feel less like a fill or more like an accent.

The continuous brushes with the nice stops you have in there leaves it to the singer to carry the song and is very appropriate.

I would resist the urge to muck with this one too much. This is my first time listening impression. I bet you if I listen to this song ten times, I could come up with a dozen ways ruin it.
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
I'm hearing those round wooden things (clave?) hitting each other on beat 2, and the and of 3. Could be played with the left foot but needs a pedal set up for those clave things. I want to hear one more different tone.
Yep, that's what I've been thinking - some other sounds. The bassist was talking about getting his acoustic slaps coordinated which might achieve a clapstick effect. Ideally it would land on the 2 just before my accent on the 2& in the leadup before the vocs and maybe part of the bridge.


Hi Pol,

Very tasty. I think that you almost have the perfect balance to the percussive elements that are the rhythm to this song. As the groove continues, I felt the tension that would cause less experienced players to offer a fill. So, the suggestion for some cymbal kissing is a good one but I don't think the song needs it.

How about a small djembe that you can pull in between your snare and right leg (on a stand that you can tilt - maybe dip the head a little forward and to the right. My ear wanted to hear a light light conga note and toward the end maybe a light conga note with your right thumb and a light slap with the left thumb near the edge of the djembe.

It would feel less like a fill or more like an accent.

The continuous brushes with the nice stops you have in there leaves it to the singer to carry the song and is very appropriate.

I would resist the urge to muck with this one too much. This is my first time listening impression. I bet you if I listen to this song ten times, I could come up with a dozen ways ruin it.
Thanks Philippe. Yep, I have to be especially careful not to step on the vocals in this one - also the guitar. Pretty keen to try my old necklaces on the cymbal, though :)

I do have a djembe, which I used to set up on a tilted stand with the kit but I got lazy since I've only been using it in one song and we don't practice it much these days. I suspect a conga (as you mentioned) would be a more suitable tone. At the moment I'm tossing in a couple of rimshots to get the effect. Might need to organise them a tad more and integrate it into the groove - apart from the stops at the moment I'm playing them at random.
 

Thaard

Platinum Member
The drumming is pretty good, maybe crank up the cymbals a little, and do something about the vocal-sound. Sounds a bit tinny for my tastes. Maybe change the organ sound, it sounds a bit too church'y.
Maybe add some percussion like bongos and some cowbell.
 

brentcn

Platinum Member
Just another suggestion, but you could play a cross-stick with the left, and keep a brush in the right hand. Maybe play a samba or bossa feel, and you can ride the snare with the brush to keep it light. With the snares off, you have a stick available for timbale-style rim-shots if needed.

With the brush in the right hand, you could also play a "sweep" on beats 1 and 3, to create a guiro effect. It might be difficult to coordinate, though.

Agreed on the cymbal chain! Placement is key, though.
 

8Mile

Platinum Member
Pol, I wouldn't change a thing. I like it just the way it is.

If you want to find a way to incorporate the sound of a ride cymbal, let me ask, which type of brushes are you using? If you're using the kind with the metal rod that retracts the brushes, you can flip that thing over and use the little loop at the end of the metal rod to ride the cymbal. It gives a metallic, kind of washy sound that might be closer to the sound you're looking for than you'd think. And no switcheroo to sticks necessary.
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
Thanks again, gents - more smart ideas! There must be around a dozen workable approaches listed so far, although some are only workable for better players than me. It seems that most of you see the extra sound needed as something that goes click.

Brent, "placement is key" ... you mean how the chain is draped on the cymbal? I've experimented at home with this some time ago and I remember that if you get it wrong the cymbal gets muted.

8Mile, if I can get the chain-sizzle working the brush handle loop could set off a nice sound in the lead in to the solo.

I've never incorporated the loop in a proper song before - I guess for the same reason as I don't use rods and prefer sticks when the wood bead is worn (but not to mush) - I like that little bit of "give". I got some Regal Tip brushes so I could use the wood handle but I find the brush bristles too stiff. Not easy to find the ideal brush!
 

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
Sorry Pol, late to this thread (been kinda busy). Probably just as well I'm late in here, because the DW rock song butcher is about to strike again, lol. I listened through a few times. Got to say, I think it sounds great as it is. I wouldn't add too many extra flavours either, as you know, this song's all about the vocal. Do agree with Thaard on the organ sound though. If you really must mess with this, then go for it. I'd do the verse in 3/4 & the chorus in 4/4. The guitar, keys, & vocal are 4/4 through the verse. All played pretty much as is, but just adding that curved ball signature to take away the predictability of it all. Bass player would need to follow you on the "1" in the verse to consolidate the affect. Do an imaginary run, I did, & I think it's kinda spicy. Just Andy's weird perspective, feel free to flame liberally!
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
... feel free to flame liberally!
Where's a flame thrower when you need one? :)

I think I should have stated that I only want to do some fairly minor tweaks rather than add a new bedroom complete with en suite bathroom. I think your suggestion would put Glenn off. I do think that later on something a bit different needs to happen, though. Maybe just hit the "sizzle" again :)
 

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
Where's a flame thrower when you need one? :)

I think I should have stated that I only want to do some fairly minor tweaks rather than add a new bedroom complete with en suite bathroom. I think your suggestion would put Glenn off. I do think that later on something a bit different needs to happen, though. Maybe just hit the "sizzle" again :)
Ok Pol, I got the wrong idea, but I did say it's great as it is. I think a counter sig' is a lovely effect sometimes, used sparingly of course. Yeah, hit that sizzle once more!
 
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