Moeller technique do you really need to master it?

Moeller technique do you really need to master it?

No, there's plenty of fine drummers that don't use Moeller. And what does it even mean it master Moeller anyways?

Being able to do the technique if required, naturally, that would be enough. Like another available tool.

My conception of Moeller 2 days ago was different from today really.

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NOTE: I don't have the time to look at all the videos unfortunately, it would be useful to get the exact minute second, in the video. That way I could listen only the right example.
 
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go spend years mastering "techniques" then

learning "techniques" has absolutely nothing to do with playing with technique ... zero

be well

finally...the definitive answer!!

/all discussion about anything drumming from here on out

I am relieved

also be well!
 
I was using Moeller before I knew what it was...it’s just another spanner in the tool box? :unsure: (y)
Me too. Same with push-pull. I was doing it long before I knew that it was even a thing with a name.

When I was doing my learning, we didnt really use specific names for technique. There was no Moeller discussion. No French vs German, none of that.

The Moeller technique is a natural, logical motion. I believe your mind and body will inherently develop something similar (to varying degrees) once you reach the limit of what is playable without such a technique. Moeller and other techniques are all about efficiency (just my opinion).
Do you HAVE to master it? No, because you don't have to play efficiently if you don't want or need to.

But if you want to play efficiently . . . . . . .
 
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I’m impressed, if somewhat skeptical, that some have independently stumbled upon moeller in their playing. “Natural” is a great word for it, but there seems to be something about moeller that requires some deliberate practice. Could just be me not having great hands, though...
 
I’m impressed, if somewhat skeptical, that some have independently stumbled upon moeller in their playing. “Natural” is a great word for it, but there seems to be something about moeller that requires some deliberate practice. Could just be me not having great hands, though...

This is why I specified that you naturally develop similar motions. Moeller may be natural but without intensely focusing on doing the motion "properly" I don't believe you'll get equal results from whatever similar motion you develop on your own. That's not to say that they wouldn't serve you well enough though.
The problem with these self-developed "techniques" is that they developed naturally to get you over a physical barrier. But there will be more barriers in the future. Best to develop a more scientific, proven technique because you will surely get more mileage out of it.

In the end there's not that much to the technique. All the work is in learning it. Once you've got it it's smooth sailing. It wouldn't make any sense for a technique to be difficult to play. The whole point is to make playing easier.
 
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I was never formally taught Moeller. At least not by name.

When I became aware of Moeller, early days of the internet, I recognized the motions. I had been taught them, and how to use them to accent notes, play multiple notes with one hand, etc. However none of my teachers - mostly older European symphony players - ever labelled anything as Moeller.

I think if someone is taught via a system based on full arm motions/strokes - functions and relationships of the shoulder, elbow, wrist, and fingers - something Moeller-esque will manifest naturally. Especially during accent studies.
 
Over thinking the Moeller Method. Your questions will further distract you of the goal...playing. It doesn't matter if anyone else uses Moeller, it only matters if YOU want to learn Moeller.

Q#1 No
Q#2 Maybe but probably not worth it because if it was, someone would have done it by now.
Q#2a Yes definitely. Most everyone goes through that door
Q#3 I'm not sure if I'm even on board that drumming careers are there for the taking, they're not. You have to make that happen 100%. For the top 10% yea there's careers. Mastering Moeller is a personal playing goal for some, not a professional requirement required by others. I'll give you 10 dollars if you can produce a non drummer musician who knows what the Moeller Method even is. It's only a drummer thing is what it is.

In the big picture, you don't have to master anything, you have to play in a way that people respond positively to. Look no further than Ringo.

I don't use Moeller, too much motion for me. I open and close my palms with very little arm movement to make my stroke. Exactly like a one handed clap. So not's not necessary in any way for me at least. (assuming I know the breadth of Moeller, which I don't) I think of Moeller as an accent stroke but I never studied it so don't rely on just that. I don't have to incorporate my arm movement to get a much louder accent stroke, it's all in my fingers. Not knocking Moeller at all. Just another tool. That I don't personally find a need for.

I'd like to know the other benefits of Moeller...apart from the big accent stroke.

I'm a big proponent of no wasted bodily motion, and in my mind, that big wind up...yea lots of wasted motion there. I can get the same sound from my fingers and keep my arm from going above my head. You could call it laziness, but it's really not. I just developed a hand technique not an arm technique because I'm lazy ha ha.. Moeller is absolutely valid but I will almost always go for the stroke that incorporates only the bodily movement that's absolutely necessary for the sound I'm after
Second that the only reason to use more movement that necessary is to look more active. (Tommy Lee of Motley Crue uses that to pretend to bash the hell out of the drums when in reality is just a flashy motion) but when you have to play a complete set at high speed, economy of motion is paramount.
 
Second that the only reason to use more movement that necessary is to look more active. (Tommy Lee of Motley Crue uses that to pretend to bash the hell out of the drums when in reality is just a flashy motion) but when you have to play a complete set at high speed, economy of motion is paramount.

I always thought the exaggerated motion was meant to ensure your foundation for the technique is solid, and would therefore translate to doing the more practical motion properly at any speed.
 
I always thought the exaggerated motion was meant to ensure your foundation for the technique is solid, and would therefore translate to doing the more practical motion properly at any speed.
That may indeed be the actual purpose but I don't know, When I started playing I used to emulate Tommy Lee because it looked bad ass to me, later when playing in a band that required lots of speed I defaulted to much less movement and basically stayed on that since. For a very exaggerated example of extreme and unnecessary use of motion look for "This drummer is at the wrong gig" video, The dude is playing some ZZ top song but all over the place, I'm pretty sure he is just being funny because he was bored (he does have a double bass kit)...
 
I thought of Jeff Sipe as an example of what you are talking about for some lesser know examples (and with matched)

Yep, you can see the turning of the hand (RH) during Jeff's jazz ride pattern. It might not be the exact same Moeller application as my example from Stephen Taylor's hihat hand, but you can tell Moeller is happening somewhere in there. I can probably do a complete analysis when I have some more time.
 
I always thought the exaggerated motion was meant to ensure your foundation for the technique is solid, and would therefore translate to doing the more practical motion properly at any speed.
That seems to be the explanation given- they show the “full Moeller” and then the other lesser Moellers, or whatever. I don’t know how you use a giant motion articulating everything from the fingers to shoulder, as the foundation for a small motion with the wrist.

To me they’re just different strokes, especially considering that leading-with-the-butt element— that’s a lot of extraneous motion when playing at combo volumes, where you’re playing a lot of 1-8” strokes.
 
That seems to be the explanation given- they show the “full Moeller” and then the other lesser Moellers, or whatever. I don’t know how you use a giant motion articulating everything from the fingers to shoulder, as the foundation for a small motion with the wrist.

To me they’re just different strokes, especially considering that leading-with-the-butt element— that’s a lot of extraneous motion when playing at combo volumes, where you’re playing a lot of 1-8” strokes.

From various things I've heard Jim Chapin say, either in videos or in person (when I went to PASIC in 1995 I spent a good deal of time hanging around him in the exhibit hall listening to him tell stories and teach people) I don't thing he would necessarily disagree with you. I got the impression that he felt that if you were playing relatively low volume music, there wasn't much or any need to use the Moeller technique. He told me that both Chris Lamb and Buster Bailey, two of the greatest concert snare drummers of all time, loved messing around with the Moeller method, even though they didn't need to use it in their playing.

Even though Chapin was without question the biggest proselytizer for the Moeller method, I don't think he was dogmatic that people needed to use it in their playing. And certainly not that they should use it with all things. In his video at one point he says something like "If you're just going to be tapping [i.e., playing unaccented singles, etc.] then forget about using the Moeller method. There are plenty of ways to tap well that don't use Moeller."
 
Yeah
From various things I've heard Jim Chapin say, either in videos or in person (when I went to PASIC in 1995 I spent a good deal of time hanging around him in the exhibit hall listening to him tell stories and teach people) I don't thing he would necessarily disagree with you. I got the impression that he felt that if you were playing relatively low volume music, there wasn't much or any need to use the Moeller technique. He told me that both Chris Lamb and Buster Bailey, two of the greatest concert snare drummers of all time, loved messing around with the Moeller method, even though they didn't need to use it in their playing.

Even though Chapin was without question the biggest proselytizer for the Moeller method, I don't think he was dogmatic that people needed to use it in their playing. And certainly not that they should use it with all things. In his video at one point he says something like "If you're just going to be tapping [i.e., playing unaccented singles, etc.] then forget about using the Moeller method. There are plenty of ways to tap well that don't use Moeller."

Yeah, it’s completely useless in the orchestra world, where your stick height is rarely more than 3 inches above the head.
 
Through a Chapin interview, he said Moeller's account of observing original motion from Civil war drummers, they were loudest bashers he ever heard.

They had to be heard over the roar of battle. Sometimes hundreds of yards away. And generally, very small and young boys were recruited for the drumming, because enemy troops were less likely to shoot at young children. So since the players were very small, they had to use a technique that lets you play with the most volume possible.
 
I'm convinced the Moeller method is not simply a marching drummer's stroke, but a concept of motion. Looking at the Wikipedia entry for Moeller Technique, we have this excerpt:

"Chapin asserts in his video [3] that the technique does not rely on the rebound - that the drummer must master the hand motion while playing each note as an actual stroke, while Dave Weckl in another video [4] says that it does rely on the rebound."

If the context is using Moeller to generate more force and volume of stroke, then Chapin's view certainly applies. If the context is using Moeller to play with the same volume but more efficiently, then Dave's view applies.
 
I'm convinced the Moeller method is not simply a marching drummer's stroke, but a concept of motion. Looking at the Wikipedia entry for Moeller Technique, we have this excerpt:

"Chapin asserts in his video [3] that the technique does not rely on the rebound - that the drummer must master the hand motion while playing each note as an actual stroke, while Dave Weckl in another video [4] says that it does rely on the rebound."

If the context is using Moeller to generate more force and volume of stroke, then Chapin's view certainly applies. If the context is using Moeller to play with the same volume but more efficiently, then Dave's view applies.


This is also from Wikipedia:

"The Moeller technique is named for drummer Sanford A. Moeller, as described in his book The Art of Snare Drumming, also called The Moeller Book. It is believed that he described the method after observing drummers who had fought in the Civil War in the 19th century. Moeller was impressed at their ability to play at high volumes for long periods without tiring. He later taught the system to Jim Chapin in 1938 and 1939. Chapin worked to popularize this method until his death in 2009.

While still a young man, Moeller learned the snare drum and studied with August Helmicke. He served in the Spanish–American War. Moeller based his lessons and instruction around a playing style used by drummers who had served in the American Civil War."


So giving this some through I decided that maybe the exaggerated Moeller stroke came about because drummers on the battle field needed to play extra loud to be heard above the gun and cannon fire. Also with high exaggerated strokes the enemy would recognize the drummers from far away and possibly not shoot the defenseless drummer. LOL

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I've been studying with Claus Hessler recently and we've been working on the Moeller motion together. I strongly suggest that anybody who would like to learn more about it go check out what Claus has to offer. His "Drumming Kairos" dvd is also worth checking out.
 
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