MOELLER METHOD

Raymond Bloom

Pioneer Member
Re: Moeller

What a privilege to study with JoJo Mayer, Raymond. What country does he teach in? I think I'll probably have to get his DVD - it looks great.

Thanks for providing that info...
It was just one clinic with him and a some consultations, but it was enough for me to undersnatd the concept and get into the position where I know what's the goal and how to reach it!

ps. I'd say, since his dvd came out, all the hand technique discussions should be closed, because every question has just one answer - watch Jojo's dvd :)
 

Legacyrik

Senior Member
Re: Moeller

All the vids I've seen about the moeller (and I admit I haven't watched all of Jim Chapin's movie) only seem to cover a small area, and certainly very little of the great stuff I was taught. If you'd received the same exposure, you might not make the AC/DC comment. But let me explain that.

Pretty early on in my training I was taught to use the MS in a Rock groove.

Here's the most basic example of this application:

Basic Rock Groove:
Hi hat plays 8ths 1+2+3+4+
Snare on 2 & 4
Kick on 1 & 3

Moeller hand movements:
HiHat: T U D T T U D T
Snare - (U) D - - (U) D -

Legend:
T = Tapstroke (not like Jim Chapin's tapstroke - this is more like a ghost stroke - stick height from drum only 1cm max)
U = Upstroke
(U) = left hand makes upstroke movement with right handed, but doesn't actually play a stroke)
D= Downstroke (accent)

This will give you a real 'slam you in the face' rock groove, very Phil Rudd.

Now check the way Phil Rudd's playing at 2.52 in this you tube movie (the left hand movement playing the backbeat is very Moeller, like the (U) D in my illiustration):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW5E6x5KtdU
You beat me to this. The "simple" application of Moeller in this type of hi-hat work can be used a ton. Just try to do eight notes on the hi-hat alternating first the tip on the top of the hat then coming down with the shoulder of the stick on the edge. Really at higher tempos you almost have to use the Moeller technique...

Many people think of Moeller as an advanced technique, and maybe they are right but on the other hand some things that will become almost fundamental in normal play will depend on it. Almost makes it a basic technique in my mind.. But not the only technique.....
 

fijjibo

Platinum Member
So many arguments......

Well, If anyone cares what I think, here it is:

Moeller is a nice thing to use.

But its not life or death.

You can get by perfectly well whether you use Moeller, Free stroke, or any technique on the face of our planet.

Just as long as your not hampering your playing or health.
 

jonescrusher

Pioneer Member
So many arguments......

Well, If anyone cares what I think, here it is:

Moeller is a nice thing to use.

But its not life or death.

You can get by perfectly well whether you use Moeller, Free stroke, or any technique on the face of our planet.

Just as long as your not hampering your playing or health.


....and you'll always be not quite as good as you otherwise would be. The fact is, unless you have some natural ability and naturally assimilate the system into your playing, learning Moeller is essential to moving to the next level.
 

fijjibo

Platinum Member
....and you'll always be not quite as good as you otherwise would be. The fact is, unless you have some natural ability and naturally assimilate the system into your playing, learning Moeller is essential to moving to the next level.
Not unless you want to learn it.

You dont have to if you dont want to.

On another plane however, I agree with you that it is a useful tool to have.
 

jonescrusher

Pioneer Member
Not unless you want to learn it.

You dont have to if you dont want to.

On another plane however, I agree with you that it is a useful tool to have.


I agree, many drummers will be happy with whatever range of skills and tone they have and won't be especially driven to improve. I think that a lot of drummers do want to reach a higher level, but they don't know what's missing. That's where the Moeller system comes in. On top of that though, a lot, especially in this age of internet resource, attempt to teach themselves and only pick up one or two aspects, thereby missing the fundamentals. That's why these Moeller thread become epic.
 

aydee

Platinum Member
Ok, heres my problem. I play Moellerish!

By that, I mean I use a whippy motion and rebound in my playing, even though its not techincally Moeller

Now,after many years, I've decided to go back to a teacher ( Berklee grad), who is trying to get me to change my grip to holding the right stick with by bottom 3 fingers, my index finger almost off the stick, and hes re-adjusted my thumb to a more top -on position.

I'm finding this extremely hard to do.The stick keeps flying out of my hand. Even though there is more rebound in this stroke, it feels restrictive and un natural.

Is there more than one grip Moeller? Am I being too impatient?
 

KONA

Silver Member
Ok, heres my problem. I play Moellerish!

By that, I mean I use a whippy motion and rebound in my playing, even though its not techincally Moeller

Now,after many years, I've decided to go back to a teacher ( Berklee grad), who is trying to get me to change my grip to holding the right stick with by bottom 3 fingers, my index finger almost off the stick, and hes re-adjusted my thumb to a more top -on position.

I'm finding this extremely hard to do.The stick keeps flying out of my hand. Even though there is more rebound in this stroke, it feels restrictive and un natural.

Is there more than one grip Moeller? Am I being too impatient?
I think Jim Chapin sumed it up beautifully here.

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/jimchapinwisewords.html

I love practicing too - I have have fun with it. Some of the styles/methods probably won't feel right for me. I'm not saying to improve on "bad habits - and make bad habits worse, if you know what I mean - we all can use constructive coaching" but one person's method may not be perfect for everyone.

It's nice to practice and learn all this stuff - some of us are better than others for sure. Just look at Billy Cobham play - he's a master - look at the way he holds his sticks.

I enjoyed reading this thread - very interesting and informative.

Happy drumming
 

JacobKaye

THE DRUM INSTRUCTOR
Re: Short Moeller Method Video

Jacob, I like your style, very easy going, and pleasant. Very important for a teacher, and you cant buy it for money!

About technique, from what Dom taught me, I feel you are straining your right wrist a bit, what I call keyboard wrist. Dom always accentuates that the wrist should be straight. Just thought I would comment, since you asked for comments.
Regards, DPS
Dr,

Seems as long as the wrist position avoids a consistent bend and happens infrequently (not as a habit) ...shouldn't be a problem.
 

balboa

Senior Member
Re: Moeller

All the vids I've seen about the moeller (and I admit I haven't watched all of Jim Chapin's movie) only seem to cover a small area, and certainly very little of the great stuff I was taught. If you'd received the same exposure, you might not make the AC/DC comment. But let me explain that.

Pretty early on in my training I was taught to use the MS in a Rock groove.

Here's the most basic example of this application:

Basic Rock Groove:
Hi hat plays 8ths 1+2+3+4+
Snare on 2 & 4
Kick on 1 & 3

Moeller hand movements:
HiHat: T U D T T U D T
Snare - (U) D - - (U) D -

Legend:
T = Tapstroke (not like Jim Chapin's tapstroke - this is more like a ghost stroke - stick height from drum only 1cm max)
U = Upstroke
(U) = left hand makes upstroke movement with right handed, but doesn't actually play a stroke)
D= Downstroke (accent)

This will give you a real 'slam you in the face' rock groove, very Phil Rudd.

Now check the way Phil Rudd's playing at 2.52 in this you tube movie (the left hand movement playing the backbeat is very Moeller, like the (U) D in my illiustration):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW5E6x5KtdU
you are totally correct, assuming phil rudd (acdc) uses it...but it can be used in their music or any simple rhythm...i guess i just havent recieved the same exposure as you have
 

Funky Crêpe

Silver Member
Time to revieve th thread!
a quick question for ye all!........although i can execute the moeller technique and the galdstone method....i sometimes start to drift into combining the two.....which completly defies the ideaology behind the moeller stroke...
but i was just wondering has anyone done the same, but has come up with some sort of a hybrid method, that might be jus as efficiant??

i am just curious about things like these
 

Deltadrummer

Platinum Member
Time to revieve th thread!
a quick question for ye all!........although i can execute the moeller technique and the galdstone method....i sometimes start to drift into combining the two.....which completly defies the ideaology behind the moeller stroke...
but i was just wondering has anyone done the same, but has come up with some sort of a hybrid method, that might be jus as efficiant??

i am just curious about things like these
Yes, the big difference is that in the Moeller you are engaging the arm and it does not rely on rebound. In Moeller, the arm moves in the pseudo- karate (paint the fence) motion known as the whipping motion, with down stroke/whip and upstroke/pull out. It does not rely on rebound. But once the pumping motion happens (DS-tap-tap-PO), you are using the rebound for the tap and that is arguable where the overlap happens.

In the Freestroke, not Gladstone technique: it's actually GL Stone technique, the wrist is moving from a stationary arm in a downward motion and then rebound. The Stone technique eliminates an upstroke; the rebound is the upstroke. I am sure that most people who use Moeller, use a combination of various strokes depending on the effect that one wants or the technique need of what one is executing. For example, if you are not generating an accent, there is no need for Moeller.
 

Funky Crêpe

Silver Member
either way...anyone in this thread who doesnt know how to do the two of these methods or either of them, i reccomend you learn them!
when you come to these methods it is like you are at a crossroad in your drum education...you can choose not to learn them thinking that they cannot help, or actually spent the time to carefully learn them and be able to incorporate them into your playing....moeller isnt just a way technique, it is a whole new way of playing (along with the gladstone method)....you can even encorporate them into playing slow grooves to give them that bit of UMPH!!!

believe me, the road that takes you through these techniques is much longer,but also more dense than the other ones!
really, every good or great drummer knows these techniques

like I advise anybody to go and see Mr.Kaye's videos on youtube.....they show how effortless the strokes can be and how fast....you are a great drumer Jacob!

Cheers
 

haredrums

Silver Member
I wanted to add my own approach to the conversation here. I have a Moeller style warmup routine that I have been working on for the past year or so that I have found really beneficial and rewarding. I encourage everyone to check it out and let me know what you think. Here is the link to the full exercise:

http://haredrums.blogspot.com/2011/10/caravan-warmup.html

My feeling is that one thing that is generally absent from drum technique discussions is a sense of musical perspective. Often times anything beyond rhythmic minutiae (melody, harmony, lyrics, phrasing, listening etc..) gets completely overlooked. I am as much of a nerd about rhythm as any other drummer, and will happily talk about the Moeller stroke all day, but I am also always interested to understand what impact this technique will have on the music I or others are playing.

This warmup and the book that it is part of is my personal attempt to partially correct this. If you guys feel differently, or if you have any comments or critiques of the warmup, please let me know!
 

Arky

Platinum Member
mikeveny,
I watched your review of that Mike Michalkow video (I know him from the Drumming System and he's great IMO).

I've 'learned' the Moeller method by watching YouTube videos and afterwards corrected a few details, having purchased the JoJo Mayer DVD. There aren't really that much 'secrets' to the Moeller technique but it's a superb technique in itself, no secrets needed. Just 'some' time to learn and apply it. I can't imagine drumming without Moeller. I don't have to use it permanently, but it's so logical and natural it's hard to _not_ apply it. I tend to use either the mini or medium Moeller unless I'm practicing blast beat stuff. No, even with blast beats, Moeller works fine for accenting (I find unaccented playing rather dull). It also works equally great with both trad and matched grip - I'm practicing both, and to me Moeller feels even greater for trad. I had to be patient until the accented/rebound notes started to sound even rhythmically, I'm still working on this. But the Moeller felt so good even when I started out, I simply had to continue practicing it. In fact, I think it's harder to hit certain speed _without_ Moeller.
 
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