Middle Finger Fulcrum

kettles

kettles

Gold Member
This:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oisX1nhhmeM

A while ago I started doing it accidentally on my right hand during rolls. Thinking it was just a bad habit I forced myself back to the "correct" thumb-first finger fulcrum, but now upon seeing this video as well as noticing a lot of other drummers doing it, I've started experimenting with this grip again, does anyone agree/disagree with it? also what are some situations where using one of the two grips be better than the other?
 
I learned to play this way and will never go back. There's a reason why it's your middle finger! The lever point is in the middle of your hand.

I remember in college: my teacher told me that I was playing wrong because I didn't use the first finger fulcrum. With all due respect, I asked then why is my technique better than the other drummers in the department? Also, am I playing figures incorrectly? Do I lack dynamics in my playing? And finally, I knew that my private teacher was a better drummer than him with way more technique.

Bottom line, it works. But for every drummer, play with whatever technique you prefer that makes you feel the most comfortable.
 
i always used my first finger and thumb to grip the stick, but my drum teacher convinced me to relax and not grip so hard, and at the same time move my grip more to my middle finger. i've been doing that pretty consistently ever since. it does help me to relax more.
 
I have several problems with what Weckl says in his video. He talks about there having to be a fulcrum with a see-saw type of action involved, and then he goes on to talk about his three-point-of-contact "triangular" grip...huh? Also, the first finger resting on the stick and being a "guide" for the stick is bogus, because the guide for the stick should be your practicing and woodshedding for accuracy. Plus, having anything "rest" on the stick is going to inhibit rebound, not allow for it. I stopped watching about half-way through...I couldn't take it anymore. I love Weckl and his playing, but he's telling a one-sided story in this video. If it works for him for all of his playing, great. I like to utilize both grips.

What I find is that using the first finger fulcrum is great if you're looking for greater control of the stick, or if you're looking to employ your fingers or finger techniques in your playing. It allows a more free-moving fulcrum, and gives you better access to utilizing all of your fingers. The middle finger fulcrum works great if you're using a whipping motion in your strokes, like Moeller technique. Both are just as valid, and I use both, but mostly first-finger fulcrum, as it allows more ease of movement for the stick. I use middle-finger fulcrum playing when I play a loud gig where I don't have to play too fast--when it feels better to just whip the stick.
 
Everyone has different hands, long thin palms, short stubby palms, all manner of length and width and weight of fingers...Whatever allows your hands to play what you want with the least effort is the grip you should use.

There are many ways to accomplish the same thing. Use the one that is most natural for you. I've come to realize that there is no "right" grip for everyone.
As long as you aren't injuring yourself, cracking cymbals, breaking heads and sticks too early, that is.

On a really fast tempo 16th note pattern done with my right hand on my ride, sometimes I put my stick in the crook between the index and middle fingers for the fulcrum, and I work the back of the stick with my middle finger. I can play pretty fast for extended periods that way. It works for me, bottom line. Just don't hurt yourself, and don't choke the stick
 
caddywumpus said:
I have several problems with what Weckl says in his video. He talks about there having to be a fulcrum with a see-saw type of action involved, and then he goes on to talk about his three-point-of-contact "triangular" grip...huh? Also, the first finger resting on the stick and being a "guide" for the stick is bogus, because the guide for the stick should be your practicing and woodshedding for accuracy. Plus, having anything "rest" on the stick is going to inhibit rebound, not allow for it. I stopped watching about half-way through...I couldn't take it anymore. I love Weckl and his playing, but he's telling a one-sided story in this video. If it works for him for all of his playing, great. I like to utilize both grips.

What I find is that using the first finger fulcrum is great if you're looking for greater control of the stick, or if you're looking to employ your fingers or finger techniques in your playing. It allows a more free-moving fulcrum, and gives you better access to utilizing all of your fingers. The middle finger fulcrum works great if you're using a whipping motion in your strokes, like Moeller technique. Both are just as valid, and I use both, but mostly first-finger fulcrum, as it allows more ease of movement for the stick. I use middle-finger fulcrum playing when I play a loud gig where I don't have to play too fast--when it feels better to just whip the stick.
Click to expand...

Most discussion on this topic is heavily polluted with people using "middle finger fulcrum" to describe anything that comes to their mind. Most people have no knowledge, as taught from a master, of what a fulcrum is, what thre Moeller grip is, and therefore no right to an opinion on which grip is better.

I am taught by Dom Famularo and Jim chapin, and this is how I see the world: the Moeller uses no real fulcrum, the stick is moving at some point between the three back fingers, typically farther back the more power I need.

But to any onlooker, my hand holding the stick would look the same whether I was going to use the Moeller, or a more formal index fulcrum grip. Why? Because my hand mostly stays in the relaxed position it would if held empty in front of me: thumb opposite index.

Juxtaposing middle finger and thumb introduces tension. I don't see any reason for doing that, but, of course its a free country.I can relate to relaxed index, three point contact etc, but I don't think about it at all. I care about my hand's overall position being relaxed, and then I go for what works.

P.S. Saying, as Weck does in the video, that there can be no rebound in the index finger grip is just.......plain.....not true

Casper
 
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Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan said:
Saying, as Weck does in the video, that there can be no rebound in the index finger grip is just.......plain.....not true
Click to expand...

I didn't say that.

Read my post again. There's nothing I say that contradicts what you've laid out in your post. We're actually in agreement.

Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan said:
Most people have no knowledge, as taught from a master, of what a fulcrum is, what thre Moeller grip is, and therefore no right to an opinion on which grip is better.
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Ouch! "No right to an opinion"? That's kind of harsh. Everyone has the right to have an opinion. Whether or not it's helpful is another thing. I sure hope you weren't referring to me, as I have my degree in classical percussion, but also studied jazz at the university at the same time, and have been trained in the use of both grips, and continue to use both to this day in my career.

But then again, NOBODY has all the right answers...
 
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Hi Guys

Of course, there are many thoughts and philosophies, often conflicting, and students at The Collective, where I teach, get confused by the many opinions of the various faculty.

So, here's my nickles worth :)

The way I was always taught, since I was a little kid in drum corps "old school", and the way I teach now, is that the fulcrum is the thumb, index and middle. The back fingers relax, and the stick pivots on the fulcrum.

The middle finger is very important, and since it is the biggest finger, it wraps around the stick, but the index is also part of the mix. There are times, however, that I feel the index "loosen up" a bit, but never completely OFF the stick.

The term "Moeller" was never mentioned in all my years of Drum Corps in New Jersey, (Most notably with The Bridgemen in the 80's with Dennis DeLucia) It was just a relaxed, flowing rebound approach, using the fulcrum of the thumb, index, and middle, and thats' how I teach it now.

Here's a clip from "Hands, Grooves, & Fills" that I show and mention the fulcrum and the philosophy in general.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmXkEeoZxw0

Hope it helps.

Pat
 
dairyairman said:
i always used my first finger and thumb to grip the stick, but my drum teacher convinced me to relax and not grip so hard, and at the same time move my grip more to my middle finger. i've been doing that pretty consistently ever since. it does help me to relax more.
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I think that's what I would stress, dairyairman..As I mentioned, using index and middle gives a more solid base opposite the thumb..

Good Luck!
 
caddywumpus said:
I didn't say that.

Read my post again. There's nothing I say that contradicts what you've laid out in your post. We're actually in agreement.



Ouch! "No right to an opinion"? That's kind of harsh. Everyone has the right to have an opinion. Whether or not it's helpful is another thing. I sure hope you weren't referring to me, as I have my degree in classical percussion, but also studied jazz at the university at the same time, and have been trained in the use of both grips, and continue to use both to this day in my career.

But then again, NOBODY has all the right answers...
Click to expand...

Caddy, you are one of the sane ones. I apologize for leaving you with the impression I was taking issue with you...I should have just master replied, but hit "quote" instead. I agree with you and I think it's clear from my post. sorry about that...

There is a Dilbert cartoon where Dogbert strips certain in- duh-viduals' right to an opinion based on their lack of knowledge. It is totally tounge in cheek. But one of the reasons I post mostly about certain topics is that I have spend years studying them, and I am a total expert on those (very few) topics.

So, of course, and I really empathetically mean this, everyone can say and do as they please. But I have no problem being sceptical about "opinions" based on no knowledge. I am a scientist, after all :)

Casper
 
Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan said:
Most discussion on this topic is heavily polluted with people using "middle finger fulcrum" to describe anything that comes to their mind. Most people have no knowledge, as taught from a master, of what a fulcrum is, what thre Moeller grip is, and therefore no right to an opinion on which grip is better.

I am taught by Dom Famularo and Jim chapin, and this is how I see the world: the Moeller uses no real fulcrum, the stick is moving at some point between the three back fingers, typically farther back the more power I need.

But to any onlooker, my hand holding the stick would look the same whether I was going to use the Moeller, or a more formal index fulcrum grip. Why? Because my hand mostly stays in the relaxed position it would if held empty in front of me: thumb opposite index.

Juxtaposing middle finger and thumb introduces tension. I don't see any reason for doing that, but, of course its a free country.I can relate to relaxed index, three point contact etc, but I don't think about it at all. I care about my hand's overall position being relaxed, and then I go for what works.

P.S. Saying, as Weck does in the video, that there can be no rebound in the index finger grip is just.......plain.....not true

Casper
Click to expand...

Why you're saying that middle+thumb introduce tension? If someone hold it tight surely.

Both index and middle as fulcrum can be played in a relaxed manner, isn't?

Here a video of the Dom; maybe i'm wrong but i see him using middle as fulcrum often in all his video. You say that you don't see any reason for doing that but Dom ( your teacher) use it sometime...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdQ7LKV1sw0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45NSac-a5ss&feature=related
 
I was just thinking about this thread today as I played a gig. I had a really long gig last night, and as I was unloading my car, half-asleep when I got home at 2:00am, I managed to strain my index finger on my right hand. Needless to say, my hand didn't feel too good at the gig today. But, I managed to pull it off by using the "middle finger fulcrum" grip. It helped me by giving my finger a much-needed rest.

So, there ya go...a real-life, practical use of the middle finger fulcrum, aside from the "which fulcrum is better" argument (which, I still contend, that neither is better...).
 
Francis said:
Why you're saying that middle+thumb introduce tension? If someone hold it tight surely.

Both index and middle as fulcrum can be played in a relaxed manner, isn't?

Here a video of the Dom; maybe i'm wrong but i see him using middle as fulcrum often in all his video. You say that you don't see any reason for doing that but Dom ( your teacher) use it sometime...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdQ7LKV1sw0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45NSac-a5ss&feature=related
Click to expand...

I won't comment on what you think you see on a video of a guy that I have sat next to for dozens of hours. The point is, Dom has never taught the "middle finger fulcrum", and the reason you think you see it in his video is probably that what you call the middle finger fulcrum, really is the index finger fulcrum. You just can't use videos as your primary discussion material.

Try this: hold your hands in front of you, completely relaxed. How do your thumb and index align? They will touch. so this is how your hands naturally look when relaxed in something akin to a drumming situation. If you move your thumb to touch your middle finger, you will introduce tension, does that communicate?

Casper
 
One thing first, you're certainly a more experienced drummer than me. But on my drum journey i try to analyze some details, i said i try ;-)

For sure video of Dom isn't as sure as sitting next to a great teacher as him. But, i take another look at his hands and it really appear to me that most of the time the pivot point of is sticks is between the middle and thumb.

Anyway, i don't feel more tension with the middle with your "exercice" i feel less tension...

Thursday i have my lessons with my teacher... and my teacher is a pupil of Dom too he also work in association with Stéphane Chamberland here in Québec City. So i will discuss with him about that and, maybe, what Dom have to said about that.

My teacher for over 1 year: http://www.stevegendron.com/English/bio.aspx No to say " hey look it's my teacher, a student of Dom" but to say that our vision is different but somewhat start from the same "source".

My teacher show me this way not as the only way, but he play like this most of the time and i adopt this "style" cause the feel is more relaxed for me, but if i 've found that the index's better for me i used it...

Also Stephane is here on DW. Just curious what can he said about that middle-thumb.

Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan said:
I won't comment on what you think you see on a video of a guy that I have sat next to for dozens of hours. The point is, Dom has never taught the "middle finger fulcrum", and the reason you think you see it in his video is probably that what you call the middle finger fulcrum, really is the index finger fulcrum. You just can't use videos as your primary discussion material.

Try this: hold your hands in front of you, completely relaxed. How do your thumb and index align? They will touch. so this is how your hands naturally look when relaxed in something akin to a drumming situation. If you move your thumb to touch your middle finger, you will introduce tension, does that communicate?

Casper
Click to expand...
 
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I use fulcrum between second joint of the first finger and thumb:)
 
Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan said:
Try this: hold your hands in front of you, completely relaxed. How do your thumb and index align? They will touch. so this is how your hands naturally look when relaxed in something akin to a drumming situation. If you move your thumb to touch your middle finger, you will introduce tension, does that communicate?

Casper
Click to expand...

Interesting: I just did that and got a very different result. My hand must be shaped totally different than yours. When I hold it totally relaxed, none of my fingers touch. If I move my fingers closer together, the finger I can touch with my thumb with the least amount of tension is clearly my middle finger and not the index.

Therefore: The grip that I use and that provides the best results concerning rebound, relaxation and control is the second finger fulcrum.

BTW: What I think is really funny about this, is that all my teachers always taught me first finger fulcrum.

Important / Correct is not what your teacher tells you, no matter if he is called JoJo Formularo or Dave Chapin. Imortant / Correct is what works best for you.
 
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SickRick said:
Interesting: I just did that and got a very different result. My hand must be shaped totally different than yours. When I hold it totally relaxed, none of my fingers touch. If I move my fingers closer together, the finger I can touch with my thumb with the least amount of tension is clearly my middle finger and not the index.
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Your hand is clearly deformed, but I'm glad the mff works for you :)

Like I said, I think it's very important to be taught the correct motions and grips by a very competent teacher, and drill them for a long time. Then let your experience guide you. I assert that most of people who say the middle finger works better for them haven't studied either position sufficiently.

Casper
 
Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan said:
Your hand is clearly deformed, but I'm glad the mff works for you :)

Like I said, I think it's very important to be taught the correct motions and grips by a very competent teacher, and drill them for a long time. Then let your experience guide you. I assert that most of people who say the middle finger works better for them haven't studied either position sufficiently.

Casper
Click to expand...

I guess my hands are deformed too because none of my fingers touch when held out in a totally relaxed state.

Why do you feel the need to insult people that feel better using one grip versus another?
 
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