Maybe Drum Makers Should be Anonymous

Another thing I don't do is tell Drum Makers or Cymbal Makers how to make their product. Take the Cymbal Custom shop offered by some makers.
Fella goes in there -to the cymbal order page- and says "I want this, a little of that, Put a little bit here, take a little bit off there. Add this, subtract that....."

Freaking thing turns out to be a nightmare and ends up on Reverb within a month.
Let the workers do their work (alone
oh and ps. Elon bought a Crime scene.
 
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I don't think that is what this is about.
I think this is about what involvement/ relationship/ (and what kind of) does one " need" or not have....with a builder/maker.

Some may think they have a positive very positive relationship with a builder and it still doesn't (the final product) work out...
You may be disgusted by the Builder (drummers are weird!) and still love the drum.
Or be in total agreement with the person and still not able to use his product
 
jda said:
I don't think that is what this is about.
I think this is about what involvement/ relationship/ (and what kind of) does one " need" or not have....with a builder/maker.

Some may think they have a positive very positive relationship with a builder and it still doesn't (the final product) work out...
You may be disgusted by the Builder (drummers are weird!) and still love the drum.
Or be in total agreement with the person and still not able to use his product
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I’m not sure who this comment is directed at specifically. But since it came after mine, I’ll bite.

I think I’m in the camp of if an individual runs a company and is going to be difficult, or hold positions that I don’t agree with, or talk smack about people, then, yeah I’m probably not gonna enjoy playing his product because it will be associated with my feelings about this person. Doesn’t matter how much I like the drum.

And conversely. If a company just goes about their business and doesn’t get involved on the front lines with anything political, or otherwise, and I like the product, then yeah, I’ll use it.
 
Great topic for discussion!

This is why I love Outlaw Drums from Georgia, USA. Mike came from a history of cabinet making & woodworking & now applies that skill to stave built drums.
Not only that, but he uses wood from an already built source so there's some history & a story behind what your drums were made from.

As for the mass produced models, I tend to stick with companies that have been around for a good while. It's why I'm a Gretsch guy as I've not only met a family member, but I know they've been doing it well enough to cross over the century mark.
 
In Portland, Allegra was started by a guy who worked for Slingerland, and he went on to make snare drums that won the Snare Drum Olympics for several years. He sold the company a while back. There has been talk among people in Portland that he sold it to “a couple of dudes who don’t know what they’re doing.” But, they seem to be doing pretty well. I’ve played on a few of the kits that they’ve made, and while they don’t have the “Magic” that the previous drums from that company have, they’re still pretty good.

There was a particular cymbalsmith that worked for Zildjian in the 50s that did exceptional cymbal work. He has a very particular hammering style that’s different from the rest, as well as a few other “signatures” that make it so you can tell his cymbals from the rest, just by looking at them. When I stumble upon these cymbals, I KNOW they’re going to be good. So, there are SOME benefits to knowing exactly who is making your gear.

My thought is that if you are buying/looking at gear, based on the brand name, you are ALREADY narrowing your search based on the manufacturer. Narrowing it down further to the individual who is crafting your gear is just an extension of that.
 
Neal Pert said:
The anger that rose up in a lot of us after the apparent ousting of Nick and Jay Jones from Noble & Cooley a few months ago got me thinking about how-- and whether-- I even want to know who is building my drums. And I got to thinking how perilous it is from a business perspective to have one big personality at the center of a company's identity. Watching Twitter become the Elon Musk App is reinforcing this idea.

Some examples come to mind. I've seen lots of people speak poorly of John Good at DW-- some think he's a snake oil salesman and their reaction to him is so negative that they won't consider DW drums. We don't even have to discuss the online reputation of someone like Ronn Dunnett, whose internet antics a decade ago have left him with a large number of people who will speak ill of him on any occasion and wouldn't even consider owning one of his drums. Everyone loved Johnny Craviotto, but after his death it's seemed like the company has been adrift. The removal of Ray Ayotte from the company he founded was a big contributor to the decline and fall of that company. ...
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I think you're making a pretty broad generalization over the reactions of very few people.

How many people were actually mad about the Noble and Cooley thing? 10? 20 people? 100? Less than a fraction of a fraction of drummers worldwide.

Dunnet, same thing. Not that many people know who he is to be mad at him. Ayotte was never that big of a name to begin with when he sold his original company.

John Good is the highest profile mentioned. But his fans far outweigh his detractors.

It doesn't matter who you are, or what you do, you're going to have hatters.

With a few exceptions, anyone who wins an election usually does so by about an average of 51% of the vote. This means everyone who's elected to something usually has approximately 49% of their constituents upset about it.

And yet we're talking about a fraction of a fraction percentage of drummers who might have strong opinions about someone being ousted from their position.
 
Doesn't matter in the slightest. First off, to charge the kind of prices boutique builders do, the buyer has to be sold a story ... Very often, the builder is at the center of the story ... just as a famous Chef's story is part of the sizzle in your overpriced steak. Quite often, the stories are made up or grossly exaggerated for marketing appeal.

Disregard the hype and focus on the drums. That way you won't overpay for a set built in the same way as the American colonialists would have built it. You also won't be taken by a bunch of whoo-hah about 15th Century logs dredged from a Romanian river (or fjord).

Also, "sold his share" and left is a completely different proposition than the negative overtones of "ousted."
 
Neal Pert said:
Well, do you think that's a good development? Bad? Just inevitable? After 20+ years of knowing (some of) our drum makers, is it better?
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The knowledge about what differentiates one brand from another is definitely a good thing, and those factors are pretty basic: sharp edge does this, roundover does this, thick vs thin shell, wood density, etc etc. That's not to say you can buy drums by specs alone and be guaranteed of specific sonic characteristics, but it's all a starting point. You still have to hear the drum to know for sure what you're getting.

That said, a few builders have embraced some voodoo in their marketing, aimed at drummers who are overly hung-up on the manufacture of the drum. But I keep an ear on all of the drums I can - extra time at NAMM for 35 years has been extremely valuable - and drums only sound so good, and of course 'good' is subjective. I haven't found any of those proprietary drums to sound as amazing as their marketing purports.

If a shell is made to its correct specs, and is tuned nicely, it's going to sound good.
 
While I understand the sound of my instrument is my responsibility I also love getting into gear choices, design, and enjoy the wealth of options we have now.

It is also sobering to realize the challenges a drum maker faces today - large or small. Not an easy business to sustain.

God bless all that put the tools in our hands.
 
my connection to the drum, drums type of cymbals; if any at all is less in who the makers are than who were the artists that used them
that's why "I can't and don't flip" "all over the construction of this" or "oh my the quality control" of that
when they have no recorded History or usage

I guess it's I like my drums and cymbal's even if brand new; to have an "old soul"
Ludwig you can "go back" to Bruford's chrome ones or Buddy Rich' wmp ones etc etc.
Same with Gretsch ...Same with Turkish handmade symbols.....

Those instrument's are old souls even if New/Today..
So I need and choose and enjoy a historical connection
some new brands that are popular I'll smile at- but never desire to own

Saves me from constant buying a lot of ***t
is but a side bonus.
I like the historical -artist usage- I believe in it
I perceive brands by the historical lineage of the artist's that used them
Tony, Elvin
Couple some Rock guys
There's your instrument choice's right there.
And there's a lot.
But I never thought myself "more special" than a Philly Joe Jones and needed something "more special" than what the Cats used before me.
Book closed.
 
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I have yet to see a formal claim of 'what person made it' that would invalidate the sale if it was mis-advertisement.

Trusting a business harkens the trust the frog had in the scorpion it tried to ferry across the river.
 
T-Dub said:
As a self-respecting human, I don't tolerate arrogance or poor treatment from anyone... I just move on.... Pride in one's work is great, being a jerk about it is not.
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Good principle to have--and it is one that would sink the Elons and Zuckerbergs of this world. Ideally, such people should not be allowed to monopolize public opinion and business culture the way they do. Sir Thomas More pointed this out in Utopia, that pride is inevitably going to ruin humanity--and he got that right way back in 1516.
 
Duck Tape said:
In a way I think it’s the woke people and the people who want to cancel everyone or like to accuse others of being bad people that I would rather boycott.
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Being "woke" has nothing to do with it. I think the word you are looking for, which is more neutral and still widely applicable regardless of ideology, is sanctimonious. Sanctimonious attitudes poison legitimate debate, conversation, and even humane treatment no matter the ideological inclination.

The whole "canceling people" phenomenon is not truly applicable to this conversation. The "canceling" problem to me, at heart, is about a larger, more complex elephant in the (American) room that has been simmering for decades: should hate speech or flatout misleading lies be protected by free speech? Should we allow jerks like Alex Jones to amplify outright lies about mass-murdered children and make merch $$$ off of it?

The Europeans, especially the Germans, have stricter laws regarding free speech after the nightmare experience of fascism. Hateful rhetoric and ad hominem attacks have no place in civil society and should not be enabled or amplified by technologies (social media). We used to have things called "editorial boards" in the media system to limit the amplification of nonsense or hate into the wider social sphere. And it is perhaps no accident that those of us who can clearly remember social life before the Internet can recall a time of cooler heads and less crazy static overcoming our lives.

Using technologies to spread knowledge and encourage productive, educational discussion about drums and the art and science of drums is wonderful. Do I really need or want to hear reams of information about drum builder X being a right-wing bigot or drum builder Y being a "libtard"? No, I do not.

It can be cool to know who built your drums--it may make one feel like greater QC or attention to detail is going into their beloved instrument. Let's face it, being in the presence of a kind or civil-mannered person who knows their stuff is wonderful to experience. Unfortunately, niceness and quality of character do not always go hand in hand with quality of product.
 
Infamous Beater said:
Disregard the hype and focus on the drums. That way you won't overpay for a set built in the same way as the American colonialists would have built it. You also won't be taken by a bunch of whoo-hah about 15th Century logs dredged from a Romanian river (or fjord).
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:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: Very funny--and don't forget "timeless timber," "private reserve," etc.
 
caddywumpus said:
In Portland, Allegra was started by a guy who worked for Slingerland, and he went on to make snare drums that won the Snare Drum Olympics for several years. He sold the company a while back. There has been talk among people in Portland that he sold it to “a couple of dudes who don’t know what they’re doing.” But, they seem to be doing pretty well. I’ve played on a few of the kits that they’ve made, and while they don’t have the “Magic” that the previous drums from that company have, they’re still pretty good.

There was a particular cymbalsmith that worked for Zildjian in the 50s that did exceptional cymbal work. He has a very particular hammering style that’s different from the rest, as well as a few other “signatures” that make it so you can tell his cymbals from the rest, just by looking at them. When I stumble upon these cymbals, I KNOW they’re going to be good. So, there are SOME benefits to knowing exactly who is making your gear.

My thought is that if you are buying/looking at gear, based on the brand name, you are ALREADY narrowing your search based on the manufacturer. Narrowing it down further to the individual who is crafting your gear is just an extension of that.
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Caddy: Good example regarding Dave at Allegra. I was sad to see him more or less forced into selling his company, and the vibe/customer attention at Allegra was never the same. Years ago I went back to Allegra to have Dave make me some add-on drums to my Allegra kit, and that's when I found out that he was not part of Allegra anymore. Those add-ons were dropped from my radar. Alas...
 
Neal Pert said:
The anger that rose up in a lot of us after the apparent ousting of Nick and Jay Jones from Noble & Cooley a few months ago got me thinking about how-- and whether-- I even want to know who is building my drums. And I got to thinking how perilous it is from a business perspective to have one big personality at the center of a company's identity. Watching Twitter become the Elon Musk App is reinforcing this idea.

Some examples come to mind. I've seen lots of people speak poorly of John Good at DW-- some think he's a snake oil salesman and their reaction to him is so negative that they won't consider DW drums. We don't even have to discuss the online reputation of someone like Ronn Dunnett, whose internet antics a decade ago have left him with a large number of people who will speak ill of him on any occasion and wouldn't even consider owning one of his drums. Everyone loved Johnny Craviotto, but after his death it's seemed like the company has been adrift. The removal of Ray Ayotte from the company he founded was a big contributor to the decline and fall of that company. And of course, beyond these sorts of folks, there are all sorts of small-time builders who've gotten behind on their orders, ticked people off, gotten sick, or whatever.

I've realized that almost all the drums I own now were made by people I couldn't name-- Yamahas, Ludwigs, Canopuseses, and the like. I think I prefer this. It removes any and all human drama from the equation and makes me evaluate the product on its actual quality, not according to some fondness for the maker. And this doesn't mean that I only want stuff from huge companies. There are plenty of smaller companies that don't center their founders or chief builders.

So, what do you think? Do you want to know who's making your drums? If so, why is that important to you?
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Yeah Dunnnettt is a real piece of work.
 
bermuda said:
The knowledge about what differentiates one brand from another is definitely a good thing, and those factors are pretty basic: sharp edge does this, roundover does this, thick vs thin shell, wood density, etc etc. That's not to say you can buy drums by specs alone and be guaranteed of specific sonic characteristics, but it's all a starting point. You still have to hear the drum to know for sure what you're getting.

That said, a few builders have embraced some voodoo in their marketing, aimed at drummers who are overly hung-up on the manufacture of the drum. But I keep an ear on all of the drums I can - extra time at NAMM for 35 years has been extremely valuable - and drums only sound so good, and of course 'good' is subjective. I haven't found any of those proprietary drums to sound as amazing as their marketing purports.

If a shell is made to its correct specs, and is tuned nicely, it's going to sound good.
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Good afternoon!
As the late great Tommy Wells, Nashville session drummer, would always say as he would tap any student line set by the door as he was leaving the shop..."Sounds like a drum!"

He loved Pearl Export kits, as do I...

What Bermuda said at the end of his post "If a shell is made to it's correct specs, and is tuned nicely, it's going to sound good." Thanks Bermuda...

cheers and blessings everyone, Trey
 
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