Marketing Drums to Individuality

drummerjims

Senior Member
I heard quite a few kits and percussion, and for the most part, the percussionist would have been better of if the kit had been left in the basement.
I could not disagree with you more. I accept your opinion as I did from the start but I am now honestly trying to figure out what you are getting at. I'm getting mad and I don't know why. I am a percussionist not just a drummer but I understand why we have drum sets and why we have aux percussion. I can't think of any percussionist other than you who thinks what you think.

Instead of getting mad at my statement, and so I don't get angry please describe your point completely because <---- No sarcasm here I actually mean this statement.
 

MrPockets

Gold Member
Unlike a drum set, which can't be played within a percussion ensemble.
Wrong. I have played the set for 2 or 3 percussion ensemble arrangements.

You should read more about the history of the drum set, you may learn something. For instance a single drummer benefits both the drummer for a pay increase and less money to give out for the band leader.

Sounds like you would be a huge fan of Latin music. Join a salsa band or something.

The people buying aux percussion are a small percentage and probably know exactly what they want. Marketing to people who already know where to look is silly.

In terms of drum shops boutique stores profit more from stocking and selling sets because they simply sell faster and in greater amounts. Places like GC have hand drums on display, but the staff often is required to push other product to sell ( I only ever visit stores with my purchase already set, so pushing large ticket items seems silly to me).

In terms with playing with others there is a community taiko and Latin perc thing people can attend and participate in, percussion ensembles, and I would even count concert bands in the list.

Some people buy drums as an individual hobby to relax as well.
 
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SmoothOperator

Gold Member
Wrong. I have played the set for 2 or 3 percussion ensemble arrangements.

You should read more about the history of the drum set, you may learn something. For instance a single drummer benefits both the drummer for a pay increase and less money to give out for the band leader.

Sounds like you would be a huge fan of Latin music. Join a salsa band or something.

The people buying aux percussion are a small percentage and probably know exactly what they want. Marketing to people who already know where to look is silly.

In terms of drum shops boutique stores profit more from stocking and selling sets because they simply sell faster and in greater amounts. Places like GC have hand drums on display, but the staff often is required to push other product to sell ( I only ever visit stores with my purchase already set, so pushing large ticket items seems silly to me).

In terms with playing with others there is a community taiko and Latin perc thing people can attend and participate in, percussion ensembles, and I would even count concert bands in the list.

Some people buy drums as an individual hobby to relax as well.
I can agree with that. Two drummers=twice as many gigs

I played jam-bay with a blues band that was having trouble booking gigs, because they sounded exactly the same every set, they were a good house band, but when they played other locations they they didn't have a bunch of sit ins. I had to put electrical tape on my fingers though.

This might help some people understand my point. Many drummers have a "dog eat dog" mentality when it comes to drumming. Many musicians see drums as subservient to the "music", and they really don't respect drums, and the drummers who play with them have bought into this mentality, and they really don't respect percussion themselves, and they really want to reduce drumming to a time keeping role devoid of creativity.
 

MrPockets

Gold Member
I can agree with that. Two drummers=twice as many gigs
I did not say that and your equation is not a factual statement.

I played jam-bay with a blues band that was having trouble booking gigs, because they sounded exactly the same every set, they were a good house band, but when they played other locations they they didn't have a bunch of sit ins. I had to put electrical tape on my fingers though.
jam-bay = Djembe
sit ins = guests of the establishment or musicians?

I seriously doubt the reason they got gigs is strictly because of you.

This might help some people understand my point. Many drummers have a "dog eat dog" mentality when it comes to drumming. Many musicians see drums as subservient to the "music", and they really don't respect drums, and the drummers who play with them have bought into this mentality, and they really don't respect percussion themselves, and they really want to reduce drumming to a time keeping role devoid of creativity.
I really don't know what to say. Sounds like you didn't get an audition and now you are upset.
 

SmoothOperator

Gold Member
I did not say that and your equation is not a factual statement.



jam-bay = Djembe
sit ins = guests of the establishment or musicians?

I seriously doubt the reason they got gigs is strictly because of you.



I really don't know what to say. Sounds like you didn't get an audition and now you are upset.
Nah, it isn't possible to be upset about not getting an audition, its like a job interview except way more superficial, nepotistic and half "hearted", though that doesn't mean I don't have an opinion about the overall quality of the music that is produced via these processes.
 

DrumEatDrum

Platinum Member
Unlike a drum set, which can't be played within a percussion ensemble.
Sure, it can be.

But how much music is WRITTEN for multiple drum sets?

Not much.

Your point doesn't make much sense.

Most bands have ONE drummer because the music is written for one drum set.

If you don't like that fact, write your own music.

This might help some people understand my point. Many drummers have a "dog eat dog" mentality when it comes to drumming. Many musicians see drums as subservient to the "music", and they really don't respect drums, and the drummers who play with them have bought into this mentality, and they really don't respect percussion themselves, and they really want to reduce drumming to a time keeping role devoid of creativity.
Which again comes down to the music written.

Many drummers buy in because they don't write their own songs.
The drummers who ARE involved in song writing do not have to be sub-servant.
 

SmoothOperator

Gold Member
Sure, it can be.

But how much music is WRITTEN for multiple drum sets?

Not much.

Your point doesn't make much sense.

Most bands have ONE drummer because the music is written for one drum set.

If you don't like that fact, write your own music.



Which again comes down to the music written.

Many drummers buy in because they don't write their own songs.
The drummers who ARE involved in song writing do not have to be sub-servant.
I agree, but I don't think many KIT-ies understand their role and what is called for when working with percussionists, who are writing their own music, or performing with ensembles with written percussion parts.
 
T

The Old Hyde

Guest
I agree, but I don't think many KIT-ies understand their role and what is called for when working with percussionists, who are writing their own music, or performing with ensembles with written percussion parts.
The ones who get hired do.
 

MrPockets

Gold Member
I agree, but I don't think many KIT-ies understand their role and what is called for when working with percussionists, who are writing their own music, or performing with ensembles with written percussion parts.
If they don't understand they won't get hired. If they were hired, there wasn't a playing audition to filter them out or they mentally lost focus.

It would be a small fault of the drummer who lost focus, or the leader for not informing the drummer that what he is playing doesn't fit.

If the drummer is playing what is written on sheet music and it doesn't meld with other percussion parts, that is the fault of the composer. If the drummer has sheet music in front of him and he is not playing what is written that is another issue.

I still think you don't take into account the band leader who only wants one percussionist (rock, latin, funk, etc) for logistics,looks (however shallow), and pay reasons.
 

drummerjims

Senior Member
I agree, but I don't think many KIT-ies understand their role and what is called for when working with percussionists, who are writing their own music, or performing with ensembles with written percussion parts.
I had a long post typed up earlier but my internet went out and it didn't get posted but because off this post you made above it really is irrelevant anyways now. All I have to say to this is (trying not to use all caps on this one) A drummer is a percussionist. I play with "aux percussionists" all the time as a kit player and I play with kit players when I am the aux percussionist. I just dont know what you are getting at. I am getting frustrated... Answer a few questions for me.

  1. what is the role of KIT-ies? <-- haha KIT-ies get it kitties :)
  2. What part of being a drum set player is not being a percussionist?
  3. Do drum set players not write their own parts? someone should have informed me of this because I have been writing my own parts for quite some time now.
  4. How much wood would a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood?
  5. What part of playing a drum set is not musical? rhythm is one of the 3 main keys to music Melody harmony and rhythm.
  6. If Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled pepper how many pickled peppers would Peter Piper Pick?
  7. And the final question... can I get a drum roll please?((((BUZZ)))) What does any of this discussion have to do with marketing drums to individuality?
 

SmoothOperator

Gold Member
I had a long post typed up earlier but my internet went out and it didn't get posted but because off this post you made above it really is irrelevant anyways now. All I have to say to this is (trying not to use all caps on this one) A drummer is a percussionist. I play with "aux percussionists" all the time as a kit player and I play with kit players when I am the aux percussionist. I just dont know what you are getting at. I am getting frustrated... Answer a few questions for me.

  1. what is the role of KIT-ies? <-- haha KIT-ies get it kitties :)
  2. What part of being a drum set player is not being a percussionist?
  3. Do drum set players not write their own parts? someone should have informed me of this because I have been writing my own parts for quite some time now.
  4. How much wood would a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood?
  5. What part of playing a drum set is not musical? rhythm is one of the 3 main keys to music Melody harmony and rhythm.
  6. If Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled pepper how many pickled peppers would Peter Piper Pick?
  7. And the final question... can I get a drum roll please?((((BUZZ)))) What does any of this discussion have to do with marketing drums to individuality?
Let me say up front sorry if I cherry pick your questions.

I think the last one deserves some explanation. If you read through some of these posts, you will see a lot of marketing speak that is used to justify the purchase of a set of drums, over say congas or djembes. Kit drummers get gigs, bands can't afford two percussionists, congas are too expensive etc. Relating back to my original post, this is non-sense, much in the same vein as the salesmen trying to persuade people that they need an individual kayak, where they can do it all by themselves, so that they can sell a set to each individual.
 

mymarkers

Senior Member
Let me say up front sorry if I cherry pick your questions.

I think the last one deserves some explanation. If you read through some of these posts, you will see a lot of marketing speak that is used to justify the purchase of a set of drums, over say congas or djembes. Kit drummers get gigs, bands can't afford two percussionists, congas are too expensive etc. Relating back to my original post, this is non-sense, much in the same vein as the salesmen trying to persuade people that they need an individual kayak, where they can do it all by themselves, so that they can sell a set to each individual.
In other words, the drum set with bass, snare, hi-hat, toms, crash, and a ride is the most widely played form of percussion because of a vast marketing conspiracy perpetuated by Ludwig, Musicians Friend, Gretsch, Guitar Center, Zildjian, Sam Ash, and other such businesses? And everybody who buys a drum set is a sucker for believing their marketing propaganda because they should buy a set of congas instead?
 

SmoothOperator

Gold Member
In other words, the drum set with bass, snare, hi-hat, toms, crash, and a ride is the most widely played form of percussion because of a vast marketing conspiracy perpetuated by Ludwig, Musicians Friend, Gretsch, Guitar Center, Zildjian, Sam Ash, and other such businesses? And everybody who buys a drum set is a sucker for believing their marketing propaganda because they should buy a set of congas instead?
Well, maybe they wouldn't feel the need to say those things, if their products were a little better. Besides, I highly doubt the kit is the most widely played form of percussion, maybe the form that has the least variation, and most mechanized mass production, in the "Google Sphere".

These days everyone knows DJ's are cheaper and get more gigs, so back to the basement with you.
 

MrPockets

Gold Member
There are two different arguments in the thread now.

1) Marketing campaigns and selling strategies of retail music stores.

2) The philosophy behind the concept of the single percussionist.

1) Knowledge of push/pull marketing and understanding why retail stores ask employees to push certain products to customers is helpful. As well as trade shows. I bet anyone who works in sales, marketing, or has a degree related to it could shed light on this.

I guarantee that there are people running simulations based on several types of retail related data and these simulations along other business processes are what drive these strategies. There is a bigger picture than the show room floor.

http://dm61q01mhxuli.cloudfront.net/media/retailmath.pdf

2) This probably started in 1865 as said in The Century Project. People should watch it, it is very educational. There are probably tons of online sources as well.

I think that a band leader not wanting to pay two percussionists because he is a cheap ass but could still afford it is a legitimate reason.

Well, maybe they wouldn't feel the need to say those things, if their products were a little better. (1) Besides, I highly doubt the kit is the most widely played form of percussion (2), maybe the form that has the least variation (3), and most mechanized mass production (4), in the "Google Sphere".

These days everyone knows DJ's are cheaper and get more gigs, so back to the basement with you. (5)
1.) What makes the drum set not a good product? There are many quality products out there along with the cheapo lines.

2.) I would say that may be the case, but I thought this was based in the Western World. I would say Drum set beats out aux even when taking into account Latin/southern America

3.) Umm... the ways to set up and play a drum set are limitless. I only know of one design for most aux instruments.

4.) Thank you Henry Ford. Although there are some nice drum companies that deliver quality product that are more intimately hand done.

5.) Damn you David Guetta.This also affects your multi-percussion groups, so you would also be in the basement. It is what the majority of people want to hear. But there still are gigs available for a live band. That will not go away any time soon.
 
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SmoothOperator

Gold Member
1.) What makes the drum set not a good product? There are many quality products out there along with the cheapo lines.

2.) I would say that may be the case, but I thought this was based in the Western World. I would say Drum set beats out aux even when taking into account Latin/southern America

3.) Umm... the ways to set up and play a drum set are limitless. I only know of one design for most aux instruments.

4.) Thank you Henry Ford. Although there are some nice drum companies that deliver quality product that are more intimately hand done.

5.) Damn you David Guetta.This also affects your multi-percussion groups, so you would also be in the basement. It is what the majority of people want to hear. But there still are gigs available for a live band. That will not go away any time soon.
1) what is this refutation by inquisition?

2)China+Africa+South America+India, Somebodies been in the basement a little too long, it's starting to affect his world view.

3)see point 2

4) The issue I have with this is related to the marketing aspect. It is kind of like S M L XL clothes, I don't care how much puff paint they put on them and how bad they talk about boring custom fit clothes, the premades won't fit me well, and even for the people that they kinda sorta fit, they still look bad. This is improving, to some degree, with lean manufacturing.

5) Yes, but in the long run I think the trend will be towards layered multi track recordings, smaller bass and toms that sound good on mic, if you know what I mean, more individually dubbed instruments(aux) if you will, less playing ten instruments at the same time, some people may even try to recreate that sound live sometimes.
 

Pocket-full-of-gold

Platinum Member
Now it's clear. Although it wasn't til the fellas touched on it earlier and then I saw your subsequent replies that the penny dropped. So, call me slow on the uptake but......... you're shitty here because you can't get hired, yeah?

So the focus has turned outward by venting toward some misguided attempt to blame a kit player (or even stretching as far as those who market said kits), when it should be turning inwards and asking yourself, why not? Why am I still in the basement? That answer will provide far more clarity than any of the utter nonsense being belted around here. I'll stake my claim on it.
 

MrPockets

Gold Member
1) what is this refutation by inquisition?

2)China+Africa+South America+India, Somebodies been in the basement a little too long, it's starting to affect his world view.

3)see point 2

4) The issue I have with this is related to the marketing aspect. It is kind of like S M L XL clothes, I don't care how much puff paint they put on them and how bad they talk about boring custom fit clothes, the premades won't fit me well, and even for the people that they kinda sorta fit, they still look bad. This is improving, to some degree, with lean manufacturing.

5) Yes, but in the long run I think the trend will be towards layered multi track recordings, smaller bass and toms that sound good on mic, if you know what I mean, more individually dubbed instruments(aux) if you will, less playing ten instruments at the same time, some people may even try to recreate that sound live sometimes.
1.) Just tell us what you think drum companies can do to make a drum set better...

2.) China, African Nations, and India are definitely Eastern Hemisphere nations. Thus only Latin and South America would be counted. If we are talking the entire would "drum sets" aren't the number one seller. Stop being an ass with your comments. You explicitly stated western, so that it the direction I went. I even typed "western world". You should have understood why I left China and India out.

3.) I was talking set up mostly. Bongos and hand drums really have a few "set ups" whereas a drum set can be set up many more ways. I guess you can play any aux like you would a drum set (sicks and hands, on the rim/shell). So I take back that part of the comment.

4.) You could choose to ignore them. I have known a few 6'5" plus people and I am 6'4". I agree that shirts (AND PANTS, I CAN'T FIND NICE JEANS) don't fit the best. I have never heard any "bashing" on handmade/custom items in a direct fashion. The only thing manufactures praise that I know of is their ability to have better quality control and make the product the same every time. If you know the product you are after, why do you pay attention to what others have to say.

5.) That is just what the mainstream music industry wants. Maybe they think one drummer is "easier to control/manage". Popular music started with one drummer and it usually stays that way. Modest Mouse has two drummers and it works well. Foo Fighters, No Doubt, and RHCP bring another percussionist on tour. If there are ten percussionists on stage there is going to be decreased pay per person, and an increase in money someone has to spend on the musicians. It has more to do with saving money than not having enough. There is also the stage space issue as well and transportation and food.
 
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wildbill

Platinum Member
Nah, it isn't possible to be upset about not getting an audition, its like a job interview except way more superficial, nepotistic and half "hearted", though that doesn't mean I don't have an opinion about the overall quality of the music that is produced via these processes.
....These days everyone knows DJ's are cheaper and get more gigs, so back to the basement with you.
Now it's clear. Although it wasn't til the fellas touched on it earlier and then I saw your subsequent replies that the penny dropped. So, call me slow on the uptake but......... you're shitty here because you can't get hired, yeah?

So the focus has turned outward by venting toward some misguided attempt to blame a kit player (or even stretching as far as those who market said kits), when it should be turning inwards and asking yourself, why not? Why am I still in the basement? That answer will provide far more clarity than any of the utter nonsense being belted around here. I'll stake my claim on it.

I think you've got it PFOG. The two quotes above yours showed it for me.
 
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