Man Who Sold the World - advice please

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
We've started playing The Man Who Sold the World. The original has a guiro on top of Aynsley Dunbar's drums: www.youtube.com/watch?v=agY6FBwHcHw

I'm trying to get a bit of that "exotic" effect while staying with the bass by playing a bounced note on the snare on the 1.

Not sure it's working, though. Do you think that my snare would need to be cranked more? Can you imagine it coming good once it's played more precisely? Any ideas? I'd rather not play a straight beat in the verses - too white bread.

Still early days and some moments of hesitancy (aka stuffups) which will be sorted out but the main thing I'm wondering about is the pattern in the verses: www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6Lk9u55VcQ

Cheers!
 

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
I think your groove fits perfectly Pol, in fact, I'd say tastier than Aynsley's! Certainly more groovy, in a self contained sort of way (Aynsley had the benefit of percussion to add spice). It's great! There is one change I'd make though, & that's I'd come out of the verse groove 1 bar later (i.e. with the guitar run, not the bass run). I know you're mimicking the original arrangement, but I think your creamy groove changes the vibe, & would blend well with the initial bass scale. I think the change of groove, at present, is too stark at that point, but a perfect reinforcement to the guitar scale if delayed by a 4 count. Just a thought. Give it a try :)
 

BacteriumFendYoke

Platinum Member
Almost going for the Bossa Nova feel on the verse? Interesting.

I would say that you need to really dig into the rim click and tighten up the little snare roll; that would probably mean just adding a little more tension into the head any maybe a slightly 'boomier' bass drum. I think what you're actually playing is a good fit.
 

Richard.J

Member
Sounds more like a Tango, (I like it) it works.
With the song, musically, everything is there but it's weak. The singer sounds like he's (?) not sure of the words and is afraid to open his/her mouth.
Everything needs to be played stronger, not everyone overpowering each other, but it needs to be played like you (everyone) mean it.
 

Mad About Drums

Pollyanna's Agent
I'm trying to get a bit of that "exotic" effect while staying with the bass by playing a bounced note on the snare on the 1.
It's working fine with the song Polly, I like it very much :)

There is one change I'd make though, & that's I'd come out of the verse groove 1 bar later (i.e. with the guitar run, not the bass run). I know you're mimicking the original arrangement, but I think your creamy groove changes the vibe, & would blend well with the initial bass scale. I think the change of groove, at present, is too stark at that point, but a perfect reinforcement to the guitar scale if delayed by a 4 count. Just a thought. Give it a try :)
I kinda agree with Andy, you could keep the verse groove for an extra bar, but with a backbeat on 4 instead of the crossstick with an opening of the hi-hat on and 4, then locking with both bass and guitar, it could make the transition "smoother" but still adding a little extra "punch" to the groove, just a suggestion, your version is quite good you know :))
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
There is one change I'd make though, & that's I'd come out of the verse groove 1 bar later (i.e. with the guitar run, not the bass run). I know you're mimicking the original arrangement, but I think your creamy groove changes the vibe, & would blend well with the initial bass scale. I think the change of groove, at present, is too stark at that point, but a perfect reinforcement to the guitar scale if delayed by a 4 count. Just a thought. Give it a try :)
Thanks Andy. Smart idea. Yes, I find it a bit abrupt too - that timbrel jump from verse to chorus - and I can imagine how that would help smooth the change.

Will try this out when I can play next - in current circs I think I'll next get on the kit in May, so once the rust is cleaned off I'll re-post with the new part.


Aynsley played on that?
Yep Jon. Notice his trademark flashy fills in the original? (that I don't play). Aynsley and Ian Paice were my first drum idols. Iconic drummers.


Sounds more like a Tango, (I like it) it works.
With the song, musically, everything is there but it's weak. The singer sounds like he's (?) not sure of the words and is afraid to open his/her mouth.
Everything needs to be played stronger, not everyone overpowering each other, but it needs to be played like you (everyone) mean it.
Thanks Rickard. Agree 100%, It's a new song and the singer, bassist and I will play with more conviction once we're sure of what we're doing ...

.... ;)

I might mention that to Glenn (vocalist) because he's been saying that he was singing better a few years ago - and I agree. But we never put our finger on it. Yes, somewhere along the line he lost a little conviction and verve. I think he'll be able to correct that easily once he has that focus.


I kinda agree with Andy, you could keep the verse groove for an extra bar, but with a backbeat on 4 instead of the crossstick with an opening of the hi-hat on and 4, then locking with both bass and guitar, it could make the transition "smoother" but still adding a little extra "punch" to the groove, just a suggestion, your version is quite good you know :))
Excellent (said like Mr Burns) ... that extension on Andy's idea is exactly what's needed, Henri. Consider it incorporated!


Almost going for the Bossa Nova feel on the verse? Interesting.

I would say that you need to really dig into the rim click and tighten up the little snare roll; that would probably mean just adding a little more tension into the head any maybe a slightly 'boomier' bass drum. I think what you're actually playing is a good fit.
Thanks Bac. Never thought of it as a bossa ... since the guiro is doing that little "Latin" feel I was going for, um, a slight flamenco snare effect to keep some of the original's atmosphere.

My snare has its original 1950s thick die cast hoop on thick wooden shell so cross sticks are loud with even light taps ... so I have to be careful. I'd replace it to a triple flange except that I'd lose some richness of tone (not to gearheads - I've been paying attention :)

It looks like this, except that the wrap is brown rather than red.

Yes, a little more tension on the batter and do more practice of the controlled bounce stroke at home.

The kick sound ... 16" ... I'm dampening more these days for clarity at the bottom end (our keys player keeps slipping into the bassist's territory with his LH). I was thinking of ditching the stock foam dampener and getting a Powerstroke (will have to buy online - they're not in our local shops).

Thanks heaps for the constructive criticism, gents - very helpful!
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
IDK Pol I'd dump the multiple bounced snare hit, it sounds amateur to me. It diverts attention away from the vocal. A nice latin feel on the rimclick would sound smoother in it's place, IMboringO. The rest of it was fine I thought, it worked well.
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
I was going to ask the same to Polly! I know Aynsley Dunbar drumming on Coverdale's Whitesnake...flashy amazingly!
Not sure I heard him play with them. He's sure been around.


IDK Pol I'd dump the multiple bounced snare hit, it sounds amateur to me. It diverts attention away from the vocal. A nice latin feel on the rimclick would sound smoother in it's place, IMboringO. The rest of it was fine I thought, it worked well.
Thanks Larry! Every panel needs its Simon Cowell. Love your work :)

Yes, it's not quite working but I'm more inclined to work on some of the below things before giving up on the part. I've been hearing something (The Voices! The Voices!) but having trouble making it happen on the kit.

So yours is my Plan B. Now ... say the fixes don't work ... what kind of accents did you have in mind in that Latin feel on the rim click? Just on the 2 and 4, or extras, or displacement? Maybe add a click 16th before the 3 here and there?

As per Richard's comment, once Glenn performs the verse with the verve it needs then my little bounces shouldn't compete.
 

opentune

Platinum Member
Mick Woodmansey is the original drummer on that, not Dunbar. Mick Woodmansey, very underated (or underheard), is the guy you see in Bowie's Ziggy Stardust film/soundtrack. Very tasteful stuff on the album that coined early glam rock.

Dunbar played on the later Pinups and Diamonds Dogs albums.

Not that any of that matters Re; your youtube. I thought your version was supercool. Nice Bossa Nova feel to the drumming and I wouldn't change a bit, even the snare bits.
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
Mick Woodmansey is the original drummer on that, not Dunbar. Mick Woodmansey, very underated (or underheard), is the guy you see in Bowie's Ziggy Stardust film/soundtrack. Very tasteful stuff on the album that coined early glam rock.

Dunbar played on the later Pinups and Diamonds Dogs albums.

Not that any of that matters Re; your youtube. I thought your version was supercool. Nice Bossa Nova feel to the drumming and I wouldn't change a bit, even the snare bits.
Ouch - my bad. The name rings a bell ... was he known as Woody Woodmansey? Thanks for the correction. MW sure has Aynsley's "trademark flashy fills down", eh? If I had half a brain I'd be dangerous.haha

Glad you liked the tune and thanks for the feedback.

Jon, you should know by now that I don't take subtle hints, although I respond well to a good slap across the chops :)
 

ineedaclutch

Platinum Member
You sound great. I play a large amount of Latin and Spanish styles and when I don't play with a percussionist I emulate the guiro parts with a slightly open (most often) or splashed hh, snare press (as you are playing) or rim play. Nine times out of ten the slightly open hh works.
 

Mad About Drums

Pollyanna's Agent
I was going to ask the same to Polly! I know Aynsley Dunbar drumming on Coverdale's Whitesnake...flashy amazingly!
Are you sure about that?

The first album from 1977 "Whitesnake" feature Simon Phillips on drums and the 1978 Northwind feature drummer Tony Newman, then later Ian Paice, Cozy Powell, Tommy Aldridge, just to name a few, I don't recall Aynsley Dunbar playing with Coverdale and/or Whitesnake :)
 

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Pollyanna

Platinum Member
You sound great. I play a large amount of Latin and Spanish styles and when I don't play with a percussionist I emulate the guiro parts with a slightly open (most often) or splashed hh, snare press (as you are playing) or rim play. Nine times out of ten the slightly open hh works.
Thanks, Ineeda. The slightly open hat sounds like a subtle thing that will need a bit of quality time. I'll keep that in mind for 'ron (do you guys say that? Saying "ron" instead of "later on"?).


Are you sure about that?

The first album from 1977 "Whitesnake" feature Simon Phillips on drums and the 1978 Northwind feature drummer Tony Newman, then later Ian Paice, Cozy Powell, Tommy Aldridge, just to name a few, I don't recall Aynsley Dunbar playing with Coverdale and/or Whitesnake :)
Geez, there's been more false sightings of Aynsley than of the yeti.

Richard, I did my mea culpa in post #12.
 

Midnite Zephyr

Platinum Member
First off, your drumming is the best part of the song. Which is not the best compliment song-wise because really the drumming shouldn't be the best part of the song.

The singer could probably benefit by sounding more "spaced out" and at the end of the song those "ahhhs" should be sung together, not coming in at different moments. But that's just my preference.

The guitar sound is weak. It's played well, but I can't stand the sound. Same goes for the keyboard. Doesn't he have a Hammond or Moog type voice? Loved the bass though. Your bass player is good. Hardly even noticed him, which is a good thing.

As far as the drumming. I like all the suggestions, but I'd probably just do that transition to the chorus with a couple 4-stoke rolls. IDK. I think your verse beat is great. I can see what you are accomplishing using that bounce roll on the 1. Very crafty. I think also a 8th note chick on the HH's might add a nice layer of sound in there too. Who knows? It might be worth trying at least once.
 

Bull

Gold Member
Aynsley Dunbar played on the 1987 self titled Whitesnake album,along with John Sykes and Neil Murray. All were let go prior to the albums release. :)
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
First off, your drumming is the best part of the song. Which is not the best compliment song-wise because really the drumming shouldn't be the best part of the song.

The singer could probably benefit by sounding more "spaced out" and at the end of the song those "ahhhs" should be sung together, not coming in at different moments. But that's just my preference.

The guitar sound is weak. It's played well, but I can't stand the sound. Same goes for the keyboard. Doesn't he have a Hammond or Moog type voice? Loved the bass though. Your bass player is good. Hardly even noticed him, which is a good thing.

As far as the drumming. I like all the suggestions, but I'd probably just do that transition to the chorus with a couple 4-stoke rolls. IDK. I think your verse beat is great. I can see what you are accomplishing using that bounce roll on the 1. Very crafty. I think also a 8th note chick on the HH's might add a nice layer of sound in there too. Who knows? It might be worth trying at least once.
Thanks MZ, I think :) Much of what you say is right, though.

First the vocals - our singer's effects unit was out of action in the previously posted version. Here's the version we did the week before (15 Mar) with some vocal effects - maybe not the right effect, but better than dry: http://youtu.be/_-OO-pizcJ0

This version also solves the keyboard sound problem because our keys player is on guitar. I lobbied to keep him on guitar but I was outvoted. I prefer guitar. The organ sound reminds me of a cicada chirp.

Thinking the guitar may be more effective an octave down. Abe and Andy at various times have commented on the guitarist's sound. I haven't had a prob with it ... taste?

As a side note: YouTube didn't add the "matched third party content" notice on this version - this time I named the video file "Manoosoldawoild" and it slipped through the net :)
 

Midnite Zephyr

Platinum Member
Oh yeah! Now that was a sweet version. Exactly what I was talking about. Thanks for sharing. Now I have to go listen to it again....
 
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