Make your quarter note swing....

This is disrespectful. It’s dismissive, more specifically. Adding “all due respect”, right after saying something disrespectful, doesn’t change the disrespect.

I’m not saying you’re wrong about your idea. I’m saying your explanation begets confusion, as you have written it. It sounds like “you got to dig it to dig it” — fine for some, and not helpful for others.



Then show us an example of you doing it. Shouldn’t be hard since Chick Corea showed you.
I truly meant no disrespect but I can see how one could take it that way

But that's the best way to say what I meant

When you don't understand the concept and are not willing to or have the desire to sit with someone who does understand it can be difficult to comprehend.

Dismissing it without doing the above mentioned is somewhat irresponsible

I wish Chick was here to show you

I'm sure with some research you could find many speaking on the topic.

Many preach this.

I'm afraid my example won't do the concept justice and would most likely just lead to most denying it's effect just to stay on their desired side of the topic.

I't a bit like a player before and after sitting with Freddie Gruber

His whole concept was "the approach" ... most laugh it off until they spend time with him
 
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I appreciate what you are saying about the met. I'm using the metronome as a guidepost because that's the only way I can wrap my head around this concept. If there was no standard to adhere to, (metronome) then any comparison...there's nothing to compare to. I'm guessing. In that environment, anything goes, (I think) which doesn't help me understand. It wouldn't be crazy for me to think that...based on what I am trying to understand here...that swing can't happen to a metronome? My default is yes a person can create a swing feel with a metronome. Is that wrong too?
If you truly desire to understand the concept I recommend sitting in person with someone

Typing it out on a forum becomes difficult and is pretty much impossible

The original post was simply meant to share an age old concept that has helped countless musicians not only drummers with those you have the desire to dedicate their life to this feel.

If you do not desire dedicating time to it I'm afraid simply discussing it on a message board will not help
 
Nothing but respect for all of you

Did not mean to start an uproar just wanted to make a suggestion toward a concept that many have found to be highly instrumental to their approach.

Sometimes the journey in figuring out what a concept means is what holds the key and not being handed the answers.

I hope those who desire take that journey and find their desired feel
 
Nothing but respect for all of you

Did not mean to start an uproar just wanted to make a suggestion toward a concept that many have found to be highly instrumental to their approach.

Sometimes the journey in figuring out what a concept means is what holds the key and not being handed the answers.

I hope those who desire take that journey and find their desired feel
This thread has been helpful, at least for me. The comment about sitting with someone reminded me that Mel Brown is still teaching here. That’s probably an opportunity that should not be missed.
 
I get the "you have to feel it" stuff. I get the "it's harder to put into words" stuff.

But only to a point.

I've always felt that the statement "if you have to explain it, you'll never understand" is a crutch used by the inarticulate at best and the totally full of BS at worst.

While it might be harder to put into words, it shouldn't be impossible. And, I think it's a fair bar to overcome to be able to demonstrate this phenomenon of swinging only through quarter notes in isolation. If they exist, they should be capable of demonstration. I get there are a million ways to place the eighth note in swing, but those could be demonstrated quite clearly and even the words needed to describe these are fairly easy to come by since they have a lot to do with the relative distance between the notes surrounding it, closer or farther.

I think I'm a lot like Larry in this. In my understanding of swing the swing is what happens in between the quarters. But the swing is defined by the relationship of how close together or how far apart the notes between two quarters are. Now I get that those quarters are going to have inflection and nuance depending on the musical style, but in isolation in think they are language neutral. Accenting alone can't be the defining factor. ALL rhythmic styles use accenting on various quarter notes in conjunction with how they help define a particular style. It can't be the distance between the quarters either. Any style can rush or drag, lay back, push forward, or be dead on.
 
I haven't followed the whole thread-so hopefully I'll find a definition, description, and a means to quantify a swinging quarter note pattern and be able to discriminate it from a quarter note that is not swinging? Else it sounds like a mythical unicorn to me.
 
I get the "you have to feel it" stuff. I get the "it's harder to put into words" stuff.

But only to a point.

I've always felt that the statement "if you have to explain it, you'll never understand" is a crutch used by the inarticulate at best and the totally full of BS at worst.

While it might be harder to put into words, it shouldn't be impossible.

The problem is, even if somebody perfectly describes swing quarter notes, people have to actually do it, and do all the other things a person has to do to become a better than mediocre jazz musician. And they have to have done enough homework in the first place to recognize the legit explanation among all the millions of BS explanations.

It doesn't really work that way. What actually happens is that people who are highly motivated to learn this music listen to it a lot, and play it a lot, and spend their whole lives figuring out what works by doing it. The best you can ever hope for is that knowledgeable people give you some clues, and you then put a lot of work into figuring out what they meant, and making it work.
 
. It can't be the distance between the quarters either. Any style can rush or drag, lay back, push forward, or be dead on.

So what about my theory that the 1 and 3 are played almost imperceptibly behind the beat, and the 2 and 4 correspondingly almost imperceptibly ahead? Combine that with very slight accents on 2 and 4, and you get swing with quarters only.

Should be really easy to test the theory, just take a measure of quarters in Garage Band or whatever, move the corresponding notes like 2/100 or 3/100 of a second late/early, depending on what beat it is, and set it to repeat. Right?
 
so after reading all 5 pages of the post, I still am not convinced that swing feel is not created by subdivision. No argument by the "non-subdivision" camp has convinced me that swing comes purely from "abstract, undefined feel/luck". I have been playing in a "legit" (?*) jazz band now for 7 years, and NO ONE has ever told me that my swing feel is bad. Even when I told them that I subdivide triplets while playing. Jazz was the first style I played as a young drummer, having been taught by my dad who played on the legit jazz scene in town. He taught me to count triplets while playing. I remember him having many "legit" gigs

Yes, the quarter notes define and signify the pulse. I am not arguing that. I also don't argue that the space between the quarter notes opening up is the root of swing....but that is not some magical, other-worldy event

the quarter note pulse gets the "air pocket"/ "lilt" / "delay" / " mojo" / "lift" / "feel" / "swing" from the triplet feel... From the difference the triple makes from the duple. The addition of the third partial to a grouping of 2 - 8th notes IS the "air pocket"/ "lilt" / "delay" / " mojo" / "lift" / "feel" / "swing". And then the swing feel is further created by taking away the middle partial of the triplet to create even more "air pocket"/ "lilt" / "delay" / " mojo" / "lift" / "feel" / "swing". That is not magic...tht is just how rhythmic subdivision of pulse works. For some reason, our brains interpret the triple feel with more groove <--that is more of the "magic" that we should be researching...

the "greatest jazz cats in the world", speaking about jazz as a feel, are still explaining the triplet subdivision, just not in a theoretical way. That doesn't make them wrong...but to me, to say that the ONLY way to experience true swing is to not think about subdivision is very shortsighted...or it sounds like people trying to make themsleves seem of a higher class, or in a special elite group of players who "get the secret"....

to say that the only drummers who will ever get hired to a legit jazz gig are the ones who shun counting is absurd. How are we to know truly what Grady Tate, Joe Morello, Louis Bellson, Gene Krupa or Jimmy Cobb, were actually doing mentally. If we found out that Grady Tate was actually subdividing triplets, would he be "out of the club"? Would Killer Joe all of the sudden be a joke?

C'mon man...

* what is a legit jazz band?
 
so after reading all 5 pages of the post, I still am not convinced that swing feel is not created by subdivision. No argument by the "non-subdivision" camp has convinced me that swing comes purely from "abstract, undefined feel/luck". I have been playing in a "legit" (?*) jazz band now for 7 years, and NO ONE has ever told me that my swing feel is bad. Even when I told them that I subdivide triplets while playing. Jazz was the first style I played as a young drummer, having been taught by my dad who played on the legit jazz scene in town. He taught me to count triplets while playing. I remember him having many "legit" gigs

Yes, the quarter notes define and signify the pulse. I am not arguing that. I also don't argue that the space between the quarter notes opening up is the root of swing....but that is not some magical, other-worldy event

the quarter note pulse gets the "air pocket"/ "lilt" / "delay" / " mojo" / "lift" / "feel" / "swing" from the triplet feel... From the difference the triple makes from the duple. The addition of the third partial to a grouping of 2 - 8th notes IS the "air pocket"/ "lilt" / "delay" / " mojo" / "lift" / "feel" / "swing". And then the swing feel is further created by taking away the middle partial of the triplet to create even more "air pocket"/ "lilt" / "delay" / " mojo" / "lift" / "feel" / "swing". That is not magic...tht is just how rhythmic subdivision of pulse works. For some reason, our brains interpret the triple feel with more groove <--that is more of the "magic" that we should be researching...

the "greatest jazz cats in the world", speaking about jazz as a feel, are still explaining the triplet subdivision, just not in a theoretical way. That doesn't make them wrong...but to me, to say that the ONLY way to experience true swing is to not think about subdivision is very shortsighted...or it sounds like people trying to make themsleves seem of a higher class, or in a special elite group of players who "get the secret"....

to say that the only drummers who will ever get hired to a legit jazz gig are the ones who shun counting is absurd. How are we to know truly what Grady Tate, Joe Morello, Louis Bellson, Gene Krupa or Jimmy Cobb, were actually doing mentally. If we found out that Grady Tate was actually subdividing triplets, would he be "out of the club"? Would Killer Joe all of the sudden be a joke?

C'mon man...

* what is a legit jazz band?

I suspect that the swing feel can come both from the quarters AND the subdivisions.

And I guarantee you this—-if you’re strictly playing exact triplets at every tempo, you’re not playing jazz. LOL Most likely what you’re doing is playing somewhere between straight 8ths and triplets most of the time, with slow tempos being closer to triplets, and fast being closer to straight.

Perfect triplets sound like crap at higher speeds, and aren’t even doable at really fast bebop speed.

Just saying.
 
I suspect that the swing feel can come both from the quarters AND the subdivisions.

yep...it is the combination of both that make the feel....not one exclusively

And I guarantee you this—-if you’re strictly playing exact triplets at every tempo, you’re not playing jazz. LOL Most likely what you’re doing is playing somewhere between straight 8ths and triplets most of the time, with slow tempos being closer to triplets, and fast being closer to straight.

Perfect triplets sound like crap at higher speeds, and aren’t even doable at really fast bebop speed.

Just saying.

speed DEFINITELY affects the interp...and yeah, uptempo bop is definitely almost back in a duple feel a lot of the time...or just straight quarters

and then brush playing also can change the way the feel is handled...

so many variations with NO absolutes
 
I'm with MG1127. I can't explain it any better than he did but it's definitely the case.
 
Wow so with all the trained musicians no one can give a clear, cogent, definition and explanation of how you swing a quarter note? I can understand some not understanding such an explanation but I don't understand the lack of a one.
 
Wow so with all the trained musicians no one can give a clear, cogent, definition and explanation of how you swing a quarter note? I can understand some not understanding such an explanation but I don't understand the lack of a one.

Most musicians are not writers, or theorists. Theorists haven't touched the subject that I'm aware of, and are probably not capable of getting it right if they did. Not in a way that would have any meaning to musicians.

No one owes anyone a complete explanation of anything-- if you wait around for that, you'll never accomplish anything in music. For drummers who know how to learn, the first post, vividly illustrated with that recorded example, was more than adequate. When someone credible gives you a clue like that, even if it doesn't make sense to you instantly, you listen over and over and try to figure it out through your own playing. That's how all of this works. Everything happens through listening and playing, nothing happens through talking about the words used.
 
Most musicians are not writers, or theorists. Theorists haven't touched the subject that I'm aware of, and are probably not capable of getting it right if they did. Not in a way that would have any meaning to musicians.

No one owes anyone a complete explanation of anything-- if you wait around for that, you'll never accomplish anything in music. For drummers who know how to learn, the first post, vividly illustrated with that recorded example, was more than adequate. When someone credible gives you a clue like that, even if it doesn't make sense to you instantly, you listen over and over and try to figure it out through your own playing. That's how all of this works. Everything happens through listening and playing, nothing happens through talking about the words used.

I understand this post.
 
Whilst this could be dismissed as a thread for jazz cats to pontificate over, I think it raises an interesting issue. I personally think if you’ve been playing for a number of years your playing naturally has a better “feel” or “swing” for want of a better word. This is typically because you have been so immersed in a style or genre (yes, yes I know some of you don’t consider jazz to be a genre?!) that your playing becomes second nature and without thought. As such you no longer need to count the subdivisions to play with confidence, dynamics and authority. At that level of skill and experience the music can take on a ‘supernatural’ vibe and other musos will definitely notice the ‘feel’ or ‘swing’ in your playing. I was taught to play by a master of swing and I remember him sitting in with a bunch of kids at college. I understood exactly what he was doing technically and could play it but I knew I was a million miles away from the feel he was able to convey in his playing. I know some guys who’ve been playing forever and never capture whatever “it” is. I like to think that 30 years later I’m getting closer but as jazz isn’t my thing I’ll never get to Eric’s zen master level (or the level of some of you cats on here)!! It really is about those pockets of space. The masters are far beyond counting subdivisions and all about the vibe, but I think beginners need to start at the ground floor and that means understanding the mechanics of triplets and duplets. Is that what we’re really talking about here @MG1127 ?:unsure:(y)
 
To show the error of aligning a beat to a grid, YouTuber Rick Beato quantized a Bonham groove. It lost all of it’s “swing”.

Is the statement “perfect quarter notes don’t swing” a true statement? If so maybe a helpful description would be something like “swinging quarter notes live between perfect and bad, and you only find them by feeling”. Maybe that’s close enough. You can’t see everything with a microscope.
 
Funny. I'm a feckless twit and a shitty drummer, but this all makes perfect sense to me.
Maybe I'm a lucky twit, but it's easy for me to understand straight and swung feel.
It also makes sense that when you hear it, you know it.
I have to say the OP did a really good job trying to explain something that really, just isn't explainable in text.
 
So what about my theory that the 1 and 3 are played almost imperceptibly behind the beat, and the 2 and 4 correspondingly almost imperceptibly ahead? Combine that with very slight accents on 2 and 4, and you get swing with quarters only.

Not claiming expertise but this is sort of how I hear it too and I think the brushes give that illusion easier. The sweep and cross sweep are going to sound different for that 'walking' feeling given the circular motion. Any maybe to get a bassist perspective from someone here (@JimmyM), would it be unusual to play the same note in a row in a walking line? And a upright bass has it's tonal characteristics just naturally have an uneven 'attack' that is part of the beauty. But to say all bassist doesn't swing because all they do is play straight quarters should put the theory of 'quarters don't swing' as BS.

Here Steve is essential just playing quarters though give a subtle 'skip' he eventually puts in there but I think it illustrates it pretty simply. Again, the Gadd video shared earlier does something similar on the sticks. Of course balance, tone, taste and then handling at all sorts of tempo and playing it musically in context is a lifetime study...and if you get close you had a good life I think. Whether this agrees with what is said on this thread, IDK, but I hear this and makes me want to dance and it's just straight quarters so I feel safe to say it 'swings' in my book. Try swinging a whole note, then that is some high level hip shit.

 
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