loving NS12 + patina question

jasyr

Member
I have a no name NS12 20" that is very rich with harmonics. (I've got mostly all old Zildjian B20 cymbals.) It's a great new sound for me... soft, and just different. i just bought a shined up old Paiste Stambul 16" to go with it and would like to get some patina on it to make it match the 20"... does diluted salt & vinegar work on NS12? I've read it can take the shine off cymbals. True?

Also, does adding a little tape on bottom of cymbal take off treble the same way dirt & patina does? And i don't mean the aging of the metal. An already well-played 1960's cymbal can get the "dirt & patina" sound with some cloth duct tape?

Any NS12 trivia?

regards,
jasyr
 
Salt, vinegar, and similar solutions can lead to unpredictable results. If you want real patina, the best way to get it is by not polishing or cleaning cymbals and letting oxidation do its thing. Natural patina will form over time.

My cymbals (Zildjian's A Avedis series) have a factory-applied patina finish, probably a proprietary recipe. Zildjian claims it adds warmth to the sound. You might call or email Zildjian's headquarters and inquire about the process.
 
Anyone know how long it takes NS12 to get that powdery look? And how does it age compared to B20?
 
Anyone know how long it takes NS12 to get that powdery look? And how does it age compared to B20?
NS12 has a much higher corrosion resistance than b20. It is a copper alloy, but does not contain tin. I've got some that are like 40 years old and they have no patina on them whatsoever. I dont clean my cymbals either.
 
Update: i mixed a teaspoon of salt with 4 tablespoons of vinegar essence, (which is 7 times more concentrated than regular vinegar), and cut that w/ 8 tablespoons of water. Flipped the cymbal, taped off the hole and 1/2 filled the bell w/ some of the stuff. After 90 minutes: it looks fantastic. Totally organic. Indistinguishable from my 1960's 20" NS12 no-name.

I'm gonna buy a big bottle of the vinegar, make a pool out of plastic garbage bag just a little bigger than the cymbal, and immerse the Stambul.

Anyone else have a story about NS12 cymbals?
 
Well, I don't know much about putting a patina on a cymbal, but I had a Zyn NS12 that I quite liked. It was a 16" crash, and was the best I could afford as a teen in the 70s. I'd love to hear that cymbal today, to see if I still liked it!
 
Anyone else have a story about NS12 cymbals?
I have these 15" Paiste-Ludwig Hi-Hats. One weighs 850g, the other is 860g. The stamp is interesting as it's "Made in Germany", so it's not from the Swiss factory. The info on the old Paiste wiki made me think that they're possibly from the very late 50s to early 60s. These would be unusually sized hats for the period, if I'm not mistaken. 20210304_184420.jpg20210304_184545.jpg
 
Ya i did, looks great. Vinegar, salt, water, and just for the hell of it a couple heaping table spoons of ash from ash trays after a party.

I tape off the bottom of the cymbal (& put a little clear tape at where the top felt is, to check progress that way). The time really varies! I check every 10 minutes. It been any where from 15 to a couple hours depending on the cymbal, my mixture and the effect i want.

I don't like the relic-thing on guitars etc. And most of my cymbals are 50s-60s. Some old cymbals i use Barkeeper's Friend and clean them all the way, others, just a bit of the gunk off. I like to take the shine off some new cymbals this way. Others not. It's all about the tone.
 
Ya i did, looks great. Vinegar, salt, water, and just for the hell of it a couple heaping table spoons of ash from ash trays after a party.

I tape off the bottom of the cymbal (& put a little clear tape at where the top felt is, to check progress that way). The time really varies! I check every 10 minutes. It been any where from 15 to a couple hours depending on the cymbal, my mixture and the effect i want.

I don't like the relic-thing on guitars etc. And most of my cymbals are 50s-60s. Some old cymbals i use Barkeeper's Friend and clean them all the way, others, just a bit of the gunk off. I like to take the shine off some new cymbals this way. Others not. It's all about the tone.
Cool. Did you use a bag and what were your amounts for the vinegar, salt, and water?
 
as an artist in general i don't sweat the mixture... but it's approximately 2 heaping tablespoons of salt, a small tea cup of vinegar essence which is 7 times as strong as normal vinegar, i don't know how much water but i guess it's between 2 & 3 liters.

I made a round frame out of cardboard, cardboard bottomed one side ot it (w/hot-glue gun), spray glued a big thick leaf bag to the inside bottom So it won't touch the cymbal, and get as much even fluid around it. Duct tape around the top of frame for garbage bag. 3 pointy pyramids of wood to stabilize cymbal bow, and a wood-cone glued into cymbal stand hole so it's lifted 3/4 inch off round garbage-bagged frame, make sure it's water-tight. So it's just a big frying pan w/o a handle!

Cymbal: i only do top so cover the bottom with, depending on cymbal/situation: packing tape, or, a pre-cut garbage bag size of cymbal hot-glued to bottom rim. If it's a nice patina-ed old cymbal and for sure don't want the bottom affected i wipe on so cheap body lotion creme before i glue the plastic bag on.

The cymbal goes in upside down; get it as level as possible all the way round, then add the solution, 'till it covers top & starts going over into the bottom. Then it's a matter of checking progress, keeping the under-cymbal towelled off, and replacing the clear tape on top of bell everyother time to make sure i get a good seal. Oh and i read somewhere scrubbing w/ baking soda, when you're happy with your results, will instantly stop the patina process. Apparently the instant patina is more active & will continue the process for a while... I have no idea if it's true. I've done some w/o using baking soda after & they did not crumble to piles of dust.

I have revived bland old cymbals that have sounded dead because no one cleaned/de-patina-ed them. (Some are good like that some not.) These are not 'investments' to me. I need my cymbals to generally blend. I bought some gray early 80s UFiP hi-hats that, after gone over 3 times with Barkeeper's Friend, sound like a choir of angels. And of all the cymbals i own (maybe 40?) there's only 4 or 5 that the under-side has not been nuked w/BKF. The way i see it, i don't buy harsh sounding cymbals, used or new. And patina is a treble filter... nothing more nothing less. There's nothing cooler than an old Zildjian with a beautiful patina, and if it's current "filter" fits the cymbal, great! I have a 1940's 15" zildjian where i just BKF-ed it enough to add some highs but left around 60% of the patina... i guess i just wound the time-machine for that cymbal to how it was in 1971.
 
as an artist in general i don't sweat the mixture... but it's approximately 2 heaping tablespoons of salt, a small tea cup of vinegar essence which is 7 times as strong as normal vinegar, i don't know how much water but i guess it's between 2 & 3 liters.

I made a round frame out of cardboard, cardboard bottomed one side ot it (w/hot-glue gun), spray glued a big thick leaf bag to the inside bottom So it won't touch the cymbal, and get as much even fluid around it. Duct tape around the top of frame for garbage bag. 3 pointy pyramids of wood to stabilize cymbal bow, and a wood-cone glued into cymbal stand hole so it's lifted 3/4 inch off round garbage-bagged frame, make sure it's water-tight. So it's just a big frying pan w/o a handle!

Cymbal: i only do top so cover the bottom with, depending on cymbal/situation: packing tape, or, a pre-cut garbage bag size of cymbal hot-glued to bottom rim. If it's a nice patina-ed old cymbal and for sure don't want the bottom affected i wipe on so cheap body lotion creme before i glue the plastic bag on.

The cymbal goes in upside down; get it as level as possible all the way round, then add the solution, 'till it covers top & starts going over into the bottom. Then it's a matter of checking progress, keeping the under-cymbal towelled off, and replacing the clear tape on top of bell everyother time to make sure i get a good seal. Oh and i read somewhere scrubbing w/ baking soda, when you're happy with your results, will instantly stop the patina process. Apparently the instant patina is more active & will continue the process for a while... I have no idea if it's true. I've done some w/o using baking soda after & they did not crumble to piles of dust.

I have revived bland old cymbals that have sounded dead because no one cleaned/de-patina-ed them. (Some are good like that some not.) These are not 'investments' to me. I need my cymbals to generally blend. I bought some gray early 80s UFiP hi-hats that, after gone over 3 times with Barkeeper's Friend, sound like a choir of angels. And of all the cymbals i own (maybe 40?) there's only 4 or 5 that the under-side has not been nuked w/BKF. The way i see it, i don't buy harsh sounding cymbals, used or new. And patina is a treble filter... nothing more nothing less. There's nothing cooler than an old Zildjian with a beautiful patina, and if it's current "filter" fits the cymbal, great! I have a 1940's 15" zildjian where i just BKF-ed it enough to add some highs but left around 60% of the patina... i guess i just wound the time-machine for that cymbal to how it was in 1971.
Okay, thanks, got it. That gives a good picture of how you did it.

I've been reading about the chemistry of bronze patina and it is surprisingly complex. Whereas steel mostly reacts with oxygen to form familiar reddish rust, bronze reacts with all sorts of things and its patina is a combo of oxides, sulfates, chlorides, carbonates, acetates, etc, whose proportions vary depending on the environment it lives in. At the moment I'm debating whether to do the salt and vinegar approach which you and others seem to have gotten pretty good results with, or the boiled egg method which also seems to work well (by forming a brownish sulfate), or maybe both.
 
boiled egg method? haven't heard this one... what's going on with that?
The guys in the watch forums are using it to get patina on their bronze wristwatch cases. You put the item in a sealed container along with some smashed up hard boiled eggs for a few hours and the sulfur gas they emit does the work. It seems like a nice way to do it since you don't have to deal with a bunch of liquid. And the result seems to look pretty natural.

 
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