Lou Reed & Metallica :(

Deltadrummer

Platinum Member
Ok Abe, you got me there, but that's a different thread ;)

Yes Ken, completely agree, but the reason I put up that link, was not to compare musicianship (frankly, opposite ends of the spectrum), it was as an example of unlikely partnerships turning out wonderful stuff.
I haven't seen her yet, but she comes through The Blue Note once or twice year and always has top notch musicians with her. She did a duet stint with Chick Corea and I believe another with Herbie Hancock, so the powers that be are definitely behind her. She's smart. She's writing interesting, accessible material that is intricate, progressive and doesn't sound like endless meaningless noodling. With a great orchestrator you could hear this in a film soundtrack or at your local Symphony Hall.
 

Hewn

Member
I just got through listening to the album. I have to say I though Metallica sounded pretty good. I was surprised with Lars drumming, he seemed to step it up a notch compared to his work on Death Magnetic, he sounded really good. Lou gets a bit boring after a while, but I think Metallica themselves did a pretty decent job overall.
 

DrumEatDrum

Platinum Member
I was waiting for you to say something, but that was quick. People may like or dislike Metallica, and they are huge and influential, but as musicians they suck.
Well, they do now. No argument there.

But they didn't used to.

Listen to "And Justice for All" and count through all the odd times and over the bar line phrases.
 
Metallica was great in their heyday. I was a huge fan of theirs in the 80s. They made some seriously killer music. Their last great album was the black album. It was down hill after that. But I can still put on Puppets to this day and think they were geniuses. They were pioneers not only in the thrash genre but metal in general.

Lars is not the best metal drummer by any stretch of the imagination but he did some great stuff on those records.
They had a hint of prog in their songs back then.

Master Of Puppets is a great album and Lars really played great on the album with Blackened on it.

When Burton died,it was a big loss.
He had that hippy attitude and together they had a massive chemistry as songwriters and as a band.

The songs lost their charm after he died.

Now I can't stand em.

Funny that.

Hetfield,the only one with musical ability that held the band together with his guitar and identifiable voice.

Not much to listen too drumming wise the latest stuff but he's got a mansion and probably 20 sports cars lol.

GAF.
 

Deltadrummer

Platinum Member
Well, they do now. No argument there.

But they didn't used to.

Listen to "And Justice for All" and count through all the odd times and over the bar line phrases.
It's really an age thing. I grew up listening to Led Zep and Deep Purple so I always loved great rock singers, or maybe I just have a very limited understanding of what makes a great rock singer. I liked Dio and Rob Halford, but when I was in HS they really hadn't broken big yet to the point where they were the band have the fine production that even bands like Motley Crue and Poison came to seek out.

Metal since thrash has precured a level of angst that seems to define it these days, so if I were a teenager in 1988, as you were, I may have identified with And Justice for All. But I just hear it as music for teenagers.

Everyone knew Zep plagarized but I don't think many relaize just how much. Two of my favorite bands growing up were Zep and ELP and they were the two biggest plagarizers around, and not always honest about it. There is that Picasso quote about stealing, and I think both were brilliant at it. But sometimes when you go to the original, it has a greatness of its own.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiiY4ciKFQA
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
Everyone knew Zep plagarized but I don't think many realize just how much. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiiY4ciKFQA
Count me in that group, Ken. Amazing. Quite a few of their great tracks too. I was bemused by some of the YouTube comments saying it's just influence, not plagiarism ... even vocal line and lyrics. Love is blind, I guess.

I didn't see the grounds for the cases around My Sweet Lord or Land Downunder, but these examples are blatant.

Imagine being one of those original songwriters and hearing what are essentially rebadged cover versions by a hugely popular band while you struggled to make a living. It would be surreal.

Long way from Lou and Metallica, but interesting :)
 

DrumEatDrum

Platinum Member
It's really an age thing. I grew up listening to Led Zep and Deep Purple so I always loved great rock singers, or maybe I just have a very limited understanding of what makes a great rock singer. I liked Dio and Rob Halford, but when I was in HS they really hadn't broken big yet to the point where they were the band have the fine production that even bands like Motley Crue and Poison came to seek out.

Metal since thrash has precured a level of angst that seems to define it these days, so if I were a teenager in 1988, as you were, I may have identified with And Justice for All. But I just hear it as music for teenagers.
Fair enough, but I didn't ask you to identify with it. My comment was to your comment about "as musicians they suck." On And Justice for All, they displayed good chops, odd times, over the bar line phrases, and interesting uses of syncopation. They certainly did not "suck as musicians", regardless if you liked it or not.

But then they spent the next 20 years forgetting how to play their instruments.
 

Deltadrummer

Platinum Member
I guess you have to read between the lines of what I am saying.

1) I don't think Metallica was ever as good as the progressive rock that I grew up with in the 1970s no matter how many threes or extra beats they throw in there. I've come to like Metallica better today than I did twenty years ago. If I were 14 in 1988 or 17, I would have loved Metallica. But am still not a big fan; although whether any one likes it or not, they're the Led Zeppelin of their time. In the Metalocumentary on VH 1, the woman says at one point "Metallica made metal safe, the way Elvis made rock and roll safe. " I thought that was brilliant. Kids weren't listening to Mayhem, Gogoroth or Enslaved. They could listen to Metallica, have their little Rebellion music and grow up to be fine outstanding Wall Street bankers or Catholic priests.

2) When we all grow up we come to realize that many of the bands we loved when we were 14 or 17 aren't as good when we are 22 or 25 even though we may always have a soft spot for them in our hearts. I came to understand that guys who were 10-15 years older then me often hated Led Zep and believed that they paled musically in comparison to Cream or The Experience. hence see point one.

3) I like the Loutallica because the tunes has a carefree folky little hook and then this heavy riff under it. It works for me. If we don't try to open up our ears to what is new, esp. with our favorite band, we may miss a lot. Ultimately for me, any rock band needs to be able to write a good tune and I would take Space Truckin,' Crazy Train, or Breakin the Law over any supposedly progressive tunes that may not be that progressive.
 

Midnite Zephyr

Platinum Member
You're implying that teenagers cannot have sophisticated tastes. Sorry, but this is not true. Metallica got famous because they were that good compared to the other crap at the time. Then came the Black album and they went corporate and sold their souls to the machine. Slayer was big too. Reign In Blood was groundbreaking because the appeal was so widespread.

When I was 15, I got Genesis' Threee Sides Live album and I wore that cassette out in my new Walkman. Is that not sophisticated enough? Have you ever heard Orion by Metallica?
 

Loewra827

Junior Member
I liked Lulu its different. I never got the point of every Metallica fan bitching about how the first four albums (some people say the first 3) are the only good albums. I always thought if those albums were so great why didn't they have more sales? I love the Load and Reload albums, the live versions of those songs are amazing. As for St. Anger its heavy as hell, and it has better lyrics then the childish lyrics of Kill Em All so what if it didn't have guitar solos. As for the Lulu album I thought the first cd was kind of all of the place and hit or miss. But the second cd I thought was pure gold. Oh well now I wait for someone to make fun of me for liking this album :3
 

BabyBob

Silver Member
You're implying that teenagers cannot have sophisticated tastes. Sorry, but this is not true. Metallica got famous because they were that good compared to the other crap at the time. Then came the Black album and they went corporate and sold their souls to the machine. Slayer was big too. Reign In Blood was groundbreaking because the appeal was so widespread.

When I was 15, I got Genesis' Threee Sides Live album and I wore that cassette out in my new Walkman. Is that not sophisticated enough? Have you ever heard Orion by Metallica?
Yes Orion is one of my favorite too...if I can't get Master Of Puppets I'll take that any other day. :)
 

Netz Ausg

Silver Member
I get that Lars isn't at his best currently - the beats are simple and his timing is definitely not perfect - I get that.

Saying that, however, I saw them when they hit London last and he was damn good! I think with Lars he's shocking from a technical stand point but his sense of feel and application of what he plays to the music in a live context is incredible. He has always been a better live drummer than studio artist.

This record is not something I think I'll get (the first Metallica record I won't own) but at the end of the day it's not a Metallica record. Arguably it's not a record. It's more a musicaly backed poetry that is essentially a Lou Reed project with Metallica filling out the back line.

They tried something new, it's not to many peoples tastes - move on and bring on the next Death Magnetic please.
 

BabyBob

Silver Member
I get that Lars isn't at his best currently - the beats are simple and his timing is definitely not perfect - I get that.

Saying that, however, I saw them when they hit London last and he was damn good! I think with Lars he's shocking from a technical stand point but his sense of feel and application of what he plays to the music in a live context is incredible. He has always been a better live drummer than studio artist.

This record is not something I think I'll get (the first Metallica record I won't own) but at the end of the day it's not a Metallica record. Arguably it's not a record. It's more a musicaly backed poetry that is essentially a Lou Reed project with Metallica filling out the back line.

They tried something new, it's not to many peoples tastes - move on and bring on the next Death Magnetic please.
Totally agree with the last 2 paragraphs.
 

DrumEatDrum

Platinum Member
. I never got the point of every Metallica fan bitching about how the first four albums (some people say the first 3) are the only good albums. I always thought if those albums were so great why didn't they have more sales?
http://www.riaa.com/goldandplatinumdata.php?content_selector=gold-platinum-searchable-database

platinum = 1 million in US sales:


And Justice for All 8x platinum

Ride the Lighting 6 x platinum

Master of Puppets 6x platinum

Kill Em All 3x platinum

compared to:
Load 5x platinum
Re-Load 3x platinum

St Anger: 2x platinum
Death magnetic 2xplatinum

While none of their albums compared to the black album in sales (15x platinum), the first 4 albums far out sold their last two offerings.

Ride, Masters and Justice all have well outsold Load and Re-load.
 
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