Lots of chops..? Nothing wrong with that..

Billie Jean is the exception that does not prove the rule.

Most of MJ's hits had more complex drumming and rhythm, but is hardly talked about. People only focus on that singular one song, but that was definitely not the norm for his music.
It annoys me, nothing to do with the drumming, just because the song (and album) are treated as his greatest works. They aren't.
 
Chops are a weapon to do whatever needs to be done. What needs to be done is determined by the music. Chops serve the music, not the musician or his accumulated facility for its own sake.
 
Happens. Every. Time.

The word chops has potent powers that polarizes this community.

I think it may be an incantation lolo

My take on it, and one that works really well for me, is to fill the niche that nobody (it seems) wants to do

I'm talking about playing things as straight as I can, and do my musical talking with volume dynamics, support to the others, and melting into the song....rather than with clever fills. I feel it works better in my situation. I save any flashy stuff for endings. When I see a guy blowing chops inappropriately (according to me), but petering out with the ending...I don't want to be that guy.

To be clear, this is in my world, and my POV, and I'm not saying everybody should do it too. Not at all. That's crazy. But I do want to put it out there.

The hardest thing IMO about melting into the song is mentally resisting the temptation to "break the spell"
 
I'm glad folks like George here dont listen to the nonsense and just do their thing.


I would like to remind y'all that any rudiments you may know are considered chops. The more rudiments you know, the more chops you have. Even single strokes are chops.
 
Before I knew a thing about drumming - I knew I hated live versions of songs I loved where the drummer was showing off.
I get that to a degree, but I have a hard time considering it showing off if they were hired for that thing and are likely doing at the behest of the MD.

In my case, pretty much the only way I enjoy these kind pop acts are through their live performances, in large part because of the live orchestration. I enjoy seeing and hearing songs take on new life and to continue to grow after the recording.
 
Man, u need to get an education. Because drums and bass too dont play melody....simple as that. They are there to keep time . Jo public dont care about ur chops or your fancy kit...all they want is a back beat, and u can do that on a two bit beginners kit too. Simples.
They can play melody/counter melody...sadly it is rare.

I would disagree that drums/bass are for time keeping...time keeping is for the whole unit not just part of it.

Questioning the static makes new maps come into being and wonder to flourish.

On the idea of chops vrs groove...its not just 'this OR that'....there are different conjunctions as well!...an idea we have collectively synthesized over and over.(for those that have not explored the numerous threads on the subject - there is SO much out there to read on this site!)
 
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I think of chops as a particular skill set demanded by a particular gig or situation. I.e. "sight-reading chops", "3/4 soloing chops", "afro 6/8 chops", or, "fast, busy, linear," what have you chops.

Bottom line: If YOUR particular musical situation calls for that type of busy playing, then do it and do it well, and feel no shame for playing that way. However, the reality is there are FAR more paying situations where that type of playing will get you fired or not called back, and for those of us who need to make a living doing this, we like to be called back as often as possible.

If that type of drumming is more musically satisfying to you, then I applaud that. We all started this for fun and you should be able to play however you want. But from the people paying us, it's a simple fact that there is less real world demand for it.
 
A timely thread from a personal point of view. A quote from one of the guys who evaluated me after an audition yesterday:

"yammyfan had great dynamics and didn’t over play anything..."

Chops are great but they're generally not what gets you hired. Depends what you're trying to achieve, I suppose.
 
..Chops are great but they're generally not what gets you hired..


I wonder anyway what the term “getting hired” means for most people..

Is someone who auditions for a bar band that plays once a month “getting hired”..?

Is someone who is part of a coverband that plays 150 gigs a year “getting hired”..?

Is ANY paying gig, or ANY gig for that matter, meaning that someone “got hired”..?

To me, “getting hired”, means that someone is living from playing drums and, as a sort of freelancer, “gets hired” to go from the 1 tour to the other or the 1 studio session to the other or from the 1 workshop clinic to the other, etc..

I played a wedding last week with my band, got paid, but i havent thought 1 second that i was “hired” that evening to play drums..

To me, 99% of all gig situations from by far most drummers, just mean that they played somewhere with their band..

Not that something made them “get hired”..

For other people this may be semantics, but i personally feel a pretty big difference regarding that..
 
Man, u need to get an education. Because drums and bass too dont play melody in certain pop music....simple as that. They are there to keep time . Jo public dont care about ur chops or your fancy kit...all they want is a back beat, and u can do that on a two bit beginners kit too. Simples.

FIFY....

drums and bass DO play melody in certain styles/genres/applications. And people actually dance to it!!!

So the above statement - minus the fix - is not an absolute
 
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aI wonder anyway what the term “getting hired” means for most people..

Is someone who auditions for a bar band that plays once a month “getting hired”..?

Is someone who is part of a coverband that plays 150 gigs a year “getting hired”..?

Is ANY paying gig, or ANY gig for that matter, meaning that someone “got hired”..?

To me, “getting hired”, means that someone is living from playing drums and, as a sort of freelancer, “gets hired” to go from the 1 tour to the other or the 1 studio session to the other or from the 1 workshop clinic to the other, etc..

I played a wedding last week with my band, got paid, but i havent thought 1 second that i was “hired” that evening to play drums..

To me, 99% of all gig situations from by far most drummers, just mean that they played somewhere with their band..

Not that something made them “get hired”..

For other people this may be semantics, but i personally feel a pretty big difference regarding that..
I can't speak for most people but to me, getting hired means being compensated to perform a job.

In your case, your band was offered money by the wedding planners to play the gig. You, by virtue of being a member of the band, were hired to play the gig that night.

So yes, a, paying gig means that somebody got hired. It may be semantics to you I understand, and you shouldn't take my word for it. I suggest that you check with a tax attorney for a more definitive answer.
 
..yes, a, paying gig means that somebody got hired. It may be semantics to you I understand, and you shouldn't take my word for it. I suggest that you check with a tax attorney for a more definitive answer..


Tax…..?

Are you saying you are AND getting hired AND even pay tax……?

Man…..i take back everything i wrote in this thread…

The money beat and nothing but the money beat..

From now on, thats where is at…
 
Finally, it's coming to an end! It's been painful and confusing like any other similar thread. I'll see you guys in the next one: "Would The Beatles' music still suck if we applied some auto-tune to it?"

Any recent money beat converts can send their old and unplayed debit beats to me, by the way. :)
 
I just think of making parts for songs like I think of cooking.

Just about everything I cook starts with some olive oil, garlic, and onions. That's the basic stuff.
After that, the question becomes, "what other ingredients does this need to make it work?"

Making a fantastic cacio e pepe is, in a sense, easy. Very few ingredients. But you have to do everything right. It's not as easy as it looks. Throwing some meatballs in will ruin it.

But then, like, making a pho from scratch involves some more complicated techniques. And so on.

Different songs are like different dishes. The goal is to make a thing that's excellent and that people enjoy. And the secret to being a good cook is knowing when to use what tool, what ingredient, what technique to get what you want and to be passionate about making people happy through your work.

Some drummers are like pizza guys. They can make one thing. If they do it well and use the right ingredients and techniques, that's fantastic. You may not trust them with anything but pizza, but everybody loves pizza so we're good.
 
Yooo I've been waiting for one of these to pop up. I haven't been a member long but when I read the OP I kinda knew which members would fall on which side, lol.

I think all parties represented their cases pretty well.
I think the original beef is a bit complex even though it's an old one and everybody kind of knows it by heart.
The 'prog/chops' set is annoyed that the admittedly wise advice of serving the band/song first has become a kind of fetish and an altar to mediocre playing. I think the last straw that causes threads like these is the sense that you should be at least a little bit ashamed of the self-centered nature of your quest for, or at least your focus on...the chops, if the chops be what ye seek.

But in this thread I've also seen very balanced responses from the 'trad' set. Forum drummers are sensible (mostly) and seem to have a common sense of what and when chops are for, even in a professional setting.
Whoever said 'most old rockers have bad chops and loose time' dropped a pretty big clue.
The beautiful thing about a worldwide drum forum is that hobbyists and pros, rock and metal and jazz can mingle.

But when a bar-blues drummer takes to a post and says stuff like "I'd rather be a simple player than a chopper who doesn't play musically", the proggy folks are raising their eyebrows, starting to think that these kinds of players probably don't even exist. Like a straw-man drummer, the player somewhere in real life who embarrasses themselves by overplaying every time, reminding all the money beat devotees that they made the right call.

The fact that these mantras keep getting repeated implies to annoyed proggys that there must be a generation out there of lost compulsive overplayers, stuck practicing aimlessly in their house cuz they can't figure out how to groove. Something like that, lol.
When I was a coming up fusion player I was obliged to study Weckl for a season. One day I was listening to Synergy and had this spontaneous impression: "This dude does nothing BUT overplay!"
And really he does, literally, and masterfully. He floats and flutters, commands the vibe from the first note to the last.

Subjective, absolutely. That's why this thread intrigues me. I don't think the OP was making a judgement about a particular style or generation. Perhaps more a critique of how we virtue signal stuff unnecessarily when we talk about drums, particularly regarding skill and technique.

Wrapping up now with my tongue in my cheek. So that OP video, that fella is a gospel chopper. Back when I didn't have chops of my own I wanted to be a gospel chopper. Now I won't touch the stuff. Gospel chops are big in Korea now I think.🤔
 
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The beautiful thing about a worldwide drum forum is that hobbyists and pros, rock and metal and jazz can mingle.
dude...your whole post was great, but this was probably the coolest part about it. I think we all forget how great this place, and opportunity is to be a part of!!

reminds me of the old crossover/thrash days where you would see every type of person at the shows...punks, skins, metalheads, Mods, nerds, New Wavers; all in a great circle pit of humanity where for a small part of our lives, we could all agree on a few things...
 
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