Learning the French grip for the right hand in traditionnal grip setup.

Auspicious

Silver Member
Hello, it'sss me!

Again with an older subject that we discussed before, i'll go straight to the point.. I practice the traditionnal grip and with some previous videos, I learned that my right hand was kind of a french grip hybrid, but not executed right.

Then I recieved the advices to switch to German or anything other then the thumb over the stick for the drums at least. (We suspected a pain in the ankle because of wrong technique back then)

Since then, I practice using the German grip for the right hand (and switching to French for the jazz ride)

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A couple of days ago the subject of the sticking was brought up again with the open-close technique and I actually worked on this in the last days (without too much joy). Especially the wrist and finger movements for the right hand, along with lifting the stick higher for the double stroke. ( with left hand technique too)

Watching these videos, made me want to look at the French grip again, for the right hand only, to make sure that I do it correctly for the ride but also for the drums. Most people don't like French grip as seen previously, but some people say good things about it also, 2 school of thought existing.

I want to switch my order of learning priority by putting French grip higher then the open close technique. First to be able to play correctly on the ride with French but at the same time, I want to correct my technique on the drums and perhaps even the hi-hats.

- Do you have a good guide to learn french grip correctly for the right hand ?
- Any fingers exercises to practice for french grip?
- I am risking this 3rd question, what about playing the FG on the Hi-hats?
 
I'm going to make what I think will probably be a very controversial statement in a room full of drummers... which isn't difficult to do.

I read all of your posts ... and I feel your heart is in the right place.

But to me it seems like you are just learning a bunch of techniques and grips and not learning to play the instrument

We learn to play the instrument by playing music... preferably with others

You develop "techniques" by playing music ... you don't force "technique" into playing music

And that word "technique" has changed somehow... all it means is to move the stick, brush, or beater to gain a desired sound in the most physically economic way... that is more up to you than anyone

Far too many drummers sit and learn 100 name brand techniques then go to play music with actual people and use 4 of them.

The music will tell you where your weaknesses are ... that is seriously the key

"hey I struggled with this in that tune let me work on it" ... type of thing.

I guess it could be fun to just learn every name brand technique and grip under the sun ... but my goodness does it seem like an enormous waste of time to me.

If you play long enough you will just naturally develop all of these things that people love to give names to ....

Moeller.... push/pull.... etc etc ... these are just names given to completely natural movements if you just play and aim for desired sounds.

I've been making a living solely playing drums since 1991 ... I use all of these things people sit in their rooms and learn ... never once did I sit down and focus on learning them nor have 95% of the drummers I know out here working.

I'm not saying not to practice and learn new things.... but there is a line somewhere between working against yourself and actually learning to grace the instrument

I hope this does not come off negatively ... sincerely not what was intended... I'm literally trying to help someone who clearly has a passion

flame away if you wish ... I stand by everything typed here
 
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We learn to play the instrument by playing music... preferably with others

You develop "techniques" by playing music ... you don't force "technique" into playing music
Well stated.

There exists a difference between natural players and not-so-natural players and too many of the latter expect proper "technique" to be a magic pill. People need to focus more on the music they make and less on what they look like while making it. No one ever got hired or paid for using the right "technique".
 
I used to be a dedicated FG player. Perhaps because my early teacher played timpani but also I think was what my hand favored; I like the control at lower dynamics and could do some techniques with less tension like ride stamina or singles. I copied a Virgil Donati recommend exercise of practicing rebound for each individual finger separately which was great for finger strength.

I've since evolved to mix in American/German along with French and have it as a tool when I want certain musical expressions and allows different finger usage. One Billy Cobham quote that stuck out was how he favored french for smaller drums and german for larger. Also, my fingers have gotten thicker as I get older it calls for modification. And there were some percussion lessons I had that changed my thinking, it's great to have any tool in your toolbox for that musical expression you need.
I think good habits in formative years are important...if I had a time machine, I would give myself a drum lesson. It's a bit more information overload nowadays than when I started. But if you can get to a point to transcend the instrument and just think music, even better. But these thing do come up, like posture or if you get certain pains in your hands/arms that may require an adjustment....which are a musical distraction. I saw alot of responses regarding frozen shoulder on the forums

If we are talking the art of expression, then all cards are the table to get whatever sound OUT...you may not even be holding any resembling a drumstick or holding three in one hand, or whatever it is, you'll invent your own grip to make it happen to get that SOUND, particularly in a creative/experimental context. But I don't really dig free artists (visual or musical) that don't have a background on fundamentals or studied the history a bit but instead just go straight to their cubism phase; the expression eventually lose depth IMO unless you are a special savant or something that can break immediate creative ground. Just my 2 cents, I hold no qualification nor make a living in music.
 
If we are talking the art of expression, then all cards are the table to get whatever sound OUT...you may not even be holding any resembling a drumstick or holding three in one hand, or whatever it is, you'll invent your own grip to make it happen to get that SOUND, particularly in a creative/experimental context. But I don't really dig free artists (visual or musical) that don't have a background on fundamentals or studied the history a bit but instead just go straight to their cubism phase; the expression eventually lose depth IMO unless you are a special savant or something that can break immediate creative ground. Just my 2 cents, I hold no qualification nor make a living in music.
If you are referring to my response with this paragraph I'll point out that I never said anything about being a "free artist" or not having a background in fundamentals.
There is a huge difference between spending time learning "techniques" and spending time learning to play your instrument ... enormous difference.

You only get better by playing

When you sit there wondering if your "push/pull" is proper but can't play music with others it is time to rethink your plans.

I'd much rather see someone play their way through a Wilcoxon book and cater to their weaknesses when they arise than see them spend weeks on some isolated name brand technique because some DVD or YouTube video told them they should
 
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I learned fairly late in life it’s easier and more enjoyable to learn to play music versus learning to play drums. Just because we are playing on the drums does not mean we are learning to play music. That’s something I have always kept with me in ensuring I am focused on becoming a better musician.
 
Ah but my problem was,

I published a video in another thread about understanding 10 stroke open rolls and closed rolls and the topic turned into using the wrist and rebounds for doubles. In my video there was a point explaining to my what I could not play good even doubles BECAUSE of a lack of wrist and finger technique. I believe it.

My goal was to play 3 different bars of open and closed rolls, the tip in order to play the good double was to learn the open close.

It's fun to practice the book every morning.

It's more about practicing the book then playing music in this specific case.

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I am still very much interested, since the last discussion about grips, I noticed a pleasent evolution, it's working when I play against recordings.

That's about it for me 😁 I only start to appreciate my developing talent and extract some happiness out of it. For the first time, my gain in happiness gives me more energy then the initially invested energy doing it.

It's a very fragile ecosystem.
 
I don't want to make promises, I hope I'll find some good people to practice jazz with one day.

But this week I just want to make this about the french grip. Now I know parts of German, learning tips for the left traditionnal grip and going back to french for the right hand and the ride. Eventually it's going to be over with these techniques.
 
I don't want to make promises, I hope I'll find some good people to practice jazz with one day.

But this week I just want to make this about the french grip. Now I know parts of German, learning tips for the left traditionnal grip and going back to french for the right hand and the ride. Eventually it's going to be over with these techniques.
I got ya man ... didn't mean to derail your focus or direction with this thread.

do your thing brother ... I'll mind my business
 
I got ya man ... didn't mean to derail your focus or direction with this thread.

do your thing brother ... I'll mind my business
Na na it's ok you can say what you believe here, I take it and think about it. ToddBishop told me also to play with people as soon as possible, I would like to forget these recommendations but it's impossible.

The harder things to do in recommendations are often the best. 😄
 
Maybe this?
It's an interesting video, the fingers he uses especially, it's different then what I imagined.

I had perhaps 75% of the theory for the ride and new things to look for now. When he does it, fingers moving action comes from his middle finger but when I do it, it's the pinky.. so major, major difference.
 
I'm no authority on those things but I guess everybody is different and will find different ways to get the stick moving.
What I do like about this video especially is the part from 5:15 on where he rolls the stick over his thumb nail and how smooth every motion is - precise without being rigid.
 
I agree with Bo. All this stuff--Moeller, push-pull, Freddy, Spivak, etc.--all have good aspects about them. But the best drummers I've seen aren't slavish subscribers to these miracle methods. One exception is Jo Jo Mayer, who learned ALL of them, but the "Grooving Greyhound"--my moniker--is barely human, and belongs in the untouchable category with freaks like Buddy Rich (Great freaks, granted). But the music's the thing. I'm a jazz drummer, so I'll comment on what I see: Bill Stewart holds his sticks like an ape. So what? He's a marvelous drummer with great, personal technique. Elliott Fine, my old drum teacher, was no grip nazi. "Look at Elvin's left hand," said Elliott. "Total slop; but who gives a shit--he's the greatest." Don't mistake, matters of grip are important. But remember, everyone is built differently, especially when it comes to hands. Long, thick fingers, stubby bratwurst fingers (like Blakey), huge hands (like Elvin and Philly Joe). Work to groove. Play with records. Don't buy into the idea that a certain grip will result in being a great drummer. My son is a terrific rudimental drummer. I mean, off the hook. He played in drum corps for years. Never studied Stick Control, or Wilcoxon. Knows some Moeller, but not slavish to it. He can grab my Wilcoxon and play many of the solos on first sight. He has a very firm grip, which is too stiff IMO for jazz. There are many paths to the waterfall. But the whole French, German, American, Push-Pull, Moeller trip can lead to a dead end.
 
None of these names I knew when I studied. My teacher explained CTS, how it happens, and why you keep your wrist and forearm in line. We did not talk about German, French, American, Moeller, Adler, Push-Pull, etc. I only found out after coming here that I am primarily German grip, and some American as my hands move away from center. All the others come into play at points, but I dont consciously think German here, push-pull there. I just use whatever grip happens at the time. None of it is a deliberate action.
 
I'm no authority on those things but I guess everybody is different and will find different ways to get the stick moving.
What I do like about this video especially is the part from 5:15 on where he rolls the stick over his thumb nail and how smooth every motion is - precise without being rigid.
I really think it's a beautiful technique, I watched the video again and took notes this time, things to try tonight behind the kit, with the ride. I can move my stick such as 5:15, it works for me naturally.

My observations today, (and I am very happy about it)

#1. The middle finger creates the velocity and the snap on the cymbal, major point for me to correct.
#2. The hand is closing but I thought the fingers were just moving up. By watching closely, the fingers close towards the interior of the hand, forming a fist, that might be the key to correct my form.
#3. I see a slight angle on the wrist and the hand, perhaps +-5 ~ 10 degrees rotation clockwise of the hand while playing with a small wrist movement to produce a small whip effect.

I really love this.
 
I am trying to keep up with the data and videos you guys give me, I've got a list of things to do.

I am trying.
 
I have terrible arthritis in hands now and I go through spells I can’t French grip. It gets aggravated from outside work not drumming- so when I lay those 25 lb stacking stones my hands are killing me for weeks. I’m having no issues of late so been using french quite a lot but I slways change up grip from all three during play. So sometimes it looks like I have a death grip because little finger mobility- other times I get plenty of finger action. I have to baby my knees and one hip- probably need knee snd hip replacement but after my wife’s experience hell no. I see famous drummers with worse technique or thrones either too high or too low and some have lost limbs. They still bring home the bacon so I could care less about technique. My microsurgery technique was different than anyone else’s and no difference in outcomes. Now I agree generally there are rules snd correct way to do things but if different and still positive outcome was does it matter. Like the thread on burying stick into snare head which is so common I wonder why some see sn issue- given so many famous drummers will use it at times. Given variations in human anatomy the proper technique could harm certain players- so they opt for different because they see a benefit or overcome their structural issues. I’ve spent a good decade studying structure/function in gross anatomy, protein structure - enzyme kinetics, and molecular motors biomechanics, to extracellular matrix biomechanics. There is no one size fits all and all the effort to make it so unfounded. It’s like saying left handed people should only play right handed objects . Now I spent a lot of effort to improve my technique but decades of bad habits difficult to change and I wasn’t playing better or more musical. So I’ve decided I just want to sound better with better musical taste. Now three weeks ago I was visiting and jamming with my older bro and he commented how I sound way better. I was just looking at a video on DW/FB with a drummer practically sitting on floor and I was going to comment on all poor technique ergonomic issues but then realized why?
 
I have terrible arthritis in hands now and I go through spells I can’t French grip. It gets aggravated from outside work not drumming- so when I lay those 25 lb stacking stones my hands are killing me for weeks. I’m having no issues of late so been using french quite a lot but I slways change up grip from all three during play. So sometimes it looks like I have a death grip because little finger mobility- other times I get plenty of finger action. I have to baby my knees and one hip- probably need knee snd hip replacement but after my wife’s experience hell no. I see famous drummers with worse technique or thrones either too high or too low and some have lost limbs. They still bring home the bacon so I could care less about technique. My microsurgery technique was different than anyone else’s and no difference in outcomes. Now I agree generally there are rules snd correct way to do things but if different and still positive outcome was does it matter. Like the thread on burying stick into snare head which is so common I wonder why some see sn issue- given so many famous drummers will use it at times. Given variations in human anatomy the proper technique could harm certain players- so they opt for different because they see a benefit or overcome their structural issues. I’ve spent a good decade studying structure/function in gross anatomy, protein structure - enzyme kinetics, and molecular motors biomechanics, to extracellular matrix biomechanics. There is no one size fits all and all the effort to make it so unfounded. It’s like saying left handed people should only play right handed objects . Now I spent a lot of effort to improve my technique but decades of bad habits difficult to change and I wasn’t playing better or more musical. So I’ve decided I just want to sound better with better musical taste. Now three weeks ago I was visiting and jamming with my older bro and he commented how I sound way better. I was just looking at a video on DW/FB with a drummer practically sitting on floor and I was going to comment on all poor technique ergonomic issues but then realized why?
These are interesting points... Glad to see that a perfect grip technique is maybe not mandatory and they will change over the tune.

I will remember this, others have told me the same thing also. (I really should take notes of the most important thing, very small notes of the bottomline, I tend to forget)

But I think

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@GetAgrippa Not related but check this news out, outbreak of a mysterious brain disease in Canada.

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