jazzgregg
Pioneer Member
Man, I gotta throw your own logic back at you=).
Harmony just doesn't 'happen' once a tune is counted off. Time does. Your reference is the count in.
Where is one? Same place it's always been.
G
Man, I gotta throw your own logic back at you=).
Harmony just doesn't 'happen' once a tune is counted off. Time does. Your reference is the count in.
Where is one? Same place it's always been.
G
"I know, I know its there, somewhere! I can't see it, though.. saw it a minute ago, in the last measure, but now the damn drummer played all over the bar line.. and now I'm not so sure. I thought I was standing on a plank. Suddenly, whoa, its a skateboard.".
Steamer
Platinum Member
Sure it still ties into the discussion because it relates directly to the concept of advanced forms of phrasing on the drumset which works into the high hat too in this discussion as we've mentioned. In over the bar line playing and subdivisions the drummer is not spelling out the time directly in a heavy handed manner but if well executed with still the "essential" underlying swing feel intact as previously mentioned the drummers ideas will lock in with the anchor being the bass setting the momentum and groove into full motion during group improvisation.
Agreed there are many different concepts in jazz but this certainly applies to a modern approach in a groove swing based jazz for sure. At least it works and does work for me and my relationship to the music and the bass player and how I react to the other musicians in this particular type of improvisational jazz concept on the spot type of setting. I always tell my favorite bass player in town he is as essential to me as one of my vital organs. We have a good understanding of each other that allows me to be fully free to express myself with a "open" sound with the unsaid trust that it won't fall appart no matter how applied/loose I decide to take it. If he's not the anchor that I trust the music will never reach the heights we all collectively are trying to achieve. It's a tight rope walk of sorts I enjoy the challenge of personally speaking in jazz. This is not to say i'm leaning on the bass player for the time,not at all. I have to play well in time but not hammer out the time leaving more room for tension and release and flow of ideas beyond the bar lines with the other musicians off the steady pulse "anchor" so to speak of the bass.
If you are playing out or free jazz individual roles change significantly with focus on other approaches and concepts taking place in the music with less to do with time per se but more to do with on the spot dialoque and flow of ideas in a group "listening" setting.
jazzgregg
Pioneer Member
Stan, you DO know you just described how you and the bassist share the concept of time, right?=)
G
J
jay norem
Guest
Hah! No, Stan, the music I write and play is pretty far from being out or free. Actually our approach is quite rooted in your basic jazz quartet bebop/post-bop kind of deal, but with a lot of odd meters and strange syncopation thrown into the mix. And my bass player and I do have a sort of combined pulse, we have I guess a pretty typical bass player-drummer thing going, but I guess what I'm saying is that much of the time I have to be listening to what the sax or piano player is doing. If I try to "lock in" to any one element then the whole thing loses its" group motion," for lack of a better way of saying it.
See, the entire quartet is the time maker and the time keeper. I've been working these guys on that concept for awhile. It's a whole band thing, to me. The entire band breathing as one. Easier said than done!
Gregg & the Colonel walk a lot more in the free space and could expand better & further, but I suspect the fundamental attributes of time and space dont change that much in most free jazz either . Time is perhaps counted less pedantically here than in the more obvious forms of expression. ..?
Steamer
Platinum Member
Sure. And i'll tell you that not every bass player i've played with appreciates my concept for playing the drums/time :} I just look at the bass as the core root of the pulse in a jazz group freeing the drummer to be more of the dynamic color,shading and shaper of the overall music on the spot but still being well aware of the "internal time" and sense of swing/flow at the same time in modern swing based jazz music in particular.
Best to find a match that works {bass+drums} is my word of advice for jazz happiness in a group situation for any true success with the music as a whole depending on the approach. It's a give and take relationship just like any other you just have to search out the right match and combination of individuals that works and feels natural and musical that fits well together.
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Steamer
Platinum Member
I just laid out a couple of different concepts and approaches I wasn't specifically directing at you and your own approach. I wish you all the best for what you are after with your group approach. Just giving you my own take on my "thinking" process and ideas on the subject and personal approach to playing ensemble groove "swing" based jazz. If playing in other more free settings which I have for many years too it's a different game of rules but with still some elements carry over and apply in both based on my personal approach to playing music and the drums but there are some specifics that set them appart that I need to do to take care of business depending on what is required for each setting.
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lochday
Senior Member
Have trumpet players, pianists, sax players and others NO feet to tap the "one" or any other gimmicks to follow the count in and always know where ONE is ?... because, yeah, it's always there, invisible but there, as Greg said.
Anyway, I don't see why a musician (on taking a chorus, for exemple) should suddenly skid on a skateboard, lose inspiration and balance because a drummer has just played over the bar line. If the drummer is a good musician, everything he does when comping is a priori adequate and here to compliment the music... And if the one taking a chorus is a good musician he knows where he/she is all the time. Doesn't he/she?
My answer to that is that music isnt always pre intended smooth sailing. I would even think of it as a series of hopefully happy surprises and accidents.
And rhythmically speaking, sometimes ideas can get so complex, so as to have more than 1 obvious interpretation. It is in those times that the 1 becomes an issue, again, in MY experience. To be sure I'm NOT excusing any musician in any ensemble for not knowing where the 1 is. If they dont, they shouldnt be performing IMO.
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The Colonel
Silver Member
I'm at my work's computer, so I'll give a more in-depth post when I get home later tonight, but:
I have that DeJohnette book. It's okay. There are a few interesting things in it, but I've found more productive practice routines (for me). For some loose over the bar line stuff - especially the hats - I used to take a simple Alan Dawson interpretation of Syncopation and play the hats as dotted quarters throughout. Once I got comfortable with that - I'd start again with the hats displaced by one 8th - and again. Then a harder interpretation, and maybe quarter triplets with the hats - then displace them so the hats play quarter triplets starting on that first upbeat (the "pl" of "tri-pl-et").
As for the role of time keeping/er in the free setting...This is where I'll get back to you in-depth, but depending on the type of music you're playing - anyone could be the time guy - or no one. "Free" music or "avant garde" or whatever - isn't just one kind of thing - with one type of means...Otomo Yoshihide wanted to do away with the whole "call & response" or "listen and react" so he would tell the musicians in his free projects to play *despite* the other players. Do your own thing - The thing is - that's another form of "listen and react!" because how are you to know honestly that they aren't just listening to the other people and playing against that intentionally?
So then Simon Fell decided he would create a form of improv where the piece has people in sound booths - cut off from the rest of the band/orchestra (in my case, orchestra) and the people "soloing" had NO IDEA what was going on with the rest of the band - so they had no reference - and one person could hear the other in the booth - but the other guy couldn't hear ANYTHING but his own thing. The finished product now has a completely different method of improvisation that you wouldn't be able to get while all of the musicians can hear and react to one another. Pretty interesting stuff.
But back to what I was going to talk about:
We could get into Milford Graves and Sunny Murray (Hell yes!) and maybe some ANDREW CYRILLE (my goodness, has his name been uttered on this site yet? please say yes) Cyrille coined the phrase "conversational rhythm" which is pretty spot on, for what I think we're talking about within the "free" stuff. the rhythms aren't set in stone and can't really be quantized... which is what I love about it. I can suddenly play something sporadic and beautiful that I hadn't thought of in my entire life and just throw it in there if the moment is right. So maybe there - I am soliciting the time - but maybe to rope what I'm doing in - the sax might play something very deliberate and constant - so now there are two people responsible for the time - We could throw some arco bass stuff in there - maybe a nice melodic line to give me and the sax players' parts some substance - the bassist has to wade through what we're doing with his/her own strong sense of time and placement (PRODUCTION VALUES! The thing most people lack, I find...)
Holy crap I gotta go - I will finish this later tonight.
I have that DeJohnette book. It's okay. There are a few interesting things in it, but I've found more productive practice routines (for me). For some loose over the bar line stuff - especially the hats - I used to take a simple Alan Dawson interpretation of Syncopation and play the hats as dotted quarters throughout. Once I got comfortable with that - I'd start again with the hats displaced by one 8th - and again. Then a harder interpretation, and maybe quarter triplets with the hats - then displace them so the hats play quarter triplets starting on that first upbeat (the "pl" of "tri-pl-et").
As for the role of time keeping/er in the free setting...This is where I'll get back to you in-depth, but depending on the type of music you're playing - anyone could be the time guy - or no one. "Free" music or "avant garde" or whatever - isn't just one kind of thing - with one type of means...Otomo Yoshihide wanted to do away with the whole "call & response" or "listen and react" so he would tell the musicians in his free projects to play *despite* the other players. Do your own thing - The thing is - that's another form of "listen and react!" because how are you to know honestly that they aren't just listening to the other people and playing against that intentionally?
So then Simon Fell decided he would create a form of improv where the piece has people in sound booths - cut off from the rest of the band/orchestra (in my case, orchestra) and the people "soloing" had NO IDEA what was going on with the rest of the band - so they had no reference - and one person could hear the other in the booth - but the other guy couldn't hear ANYTHING but his own thing. The finished product now has a completely different method of improvisation that you wouldn't be able to get while all of the musicians can hear and react to one another. Pretty interesting stuff.
But back to what I was going to talk about:
We could get into Milford Graves and Sunny Murray (Hell yes!) and maybe some ANDREW CYRILLE (my goodness, has his name been uttered on this site yet? please say yes) Cyrille coined the phrase "conversational rhythm" which is pretty spot on, for what I think we're talking about within the "free" stuff. the rhythms aren't set in stone and can't really be quantized... which is what I love about it. I can suddenly play something sporadic and beautiful that I hadn't thought of in my entire life and just throw it in there if the moment is right. So maybe there - I am soliciting the time - but maybe to rope what I'm doing in - the sax might play something very deliberate and constant - so now there are two people responsible for the time - We could throw some arco bass stuff in there - maybe a nice melodic line to give me and the sax players' parts some substance - the bassist has to wade through what we're doing with his/her own strong sense of time and placement (PRODUCTION VALUES! The thing most people lack, I find...)
Holy crap I gotta go - I will finish this later tonight.
k3ng
Silver Member
reading this thread has made the title justified in a completely different sense that what was first being mentioned. Initial meaning of the thread was the lack of emphasis on the hi hats on the 2's and 4's.
Now we get to see the lack of emphasis on the hi hats as another voice to be used just as well as the bass drum or snare drum or any number of the toms.
I love playing my hats on the 2's and the 4's though. Playing traditional jazz really gets me going. But I do also experiment with it - after working through Riley's books it really got my left foot working more than it was initially. I also learn to work my left foot into my solos now and the results are astounding.
The one thing I have to say though.. is I believe that there is a time and space for amazing left foot comping. I can actually relate to Aydee where you're playing with not-so-incredible-but-trying-hard-to-be-there jazz players. Sometimes, you just jam with anyone you come in contact with because some places, the jazz circles are just so small.
Having said that, I couldn't possibly work incredible left foot comping in my jazz trio as of now without making myself stand out too much. It just doesn't gel with the group. The sound of the 2 and 4 chick really helps the pianist fly into a strong solo vamp. I think it's in a sense a personal sacrifice - I have to cut my lavishness down to allow the pianist to shine. I too dream of a setting one day where I've got all the space I need to let myself fly on the drumset without worrying who's keeping time.
Gregg and Colonel, your insights on this topic are priceless. It's threads like these that make me feel great to be a member of this forum.
Now we get to see the lack of emphasis on the hi hats as another voice to be used just as well as the bass drum or snare drum or any number of the toms.
I love playing my hats on the 2's and the 4's though. Playing traditional jazz really gets me going. But I do also experiment with it - after working through Riley's books it really got my left foot working more than it was initially. I also learn to work my left foot into my solos now and the results are astounding.
The one thing I have to say though.. is I believe that there is a time and space for amazing left foot comping. I can actually relate to Aydee where you're playing with not-so-incredible-but-trying-hard-to-be-there jazz players. Sometimes, you just jam with anyone you come in contact with because some places, the jazz circles are just so small.
Having said that, I couldn't possibly work incredible left foot comping in my jazz trio as of now without making myself stand out too much. It just doesn't gel with the group. The sound of the 2 and 4 chick really helps the pianist fly into a strong solo vamp. I think it's in a sense a personal sacrifice - I have to cut my lavishness down to allow the pianist to shine. I too dream of a setting one day where I've got all the space I need to let myself fly on the drumset without worrying who's keeping time.
Gregg and Colonel, your insights on this topic are priceless. It's threads like these that make me feel great to be a member of this forum.
The Colonel
Silver Member
k3ng - Thanks, man - that's really great to read on my screen. Glad you're getting something out of mine and Gregg's ramblings.
So to continue - even if the entire rhythm section is playing "free" - seemingly no constant - if the sax player (let's use "sax") plays with any sort of gusto or panache or what-have-you - there will be his/her rhythms over what's going on. I love when Brotzmann plays melodically - there's something about his almost child-like sense of rhtyhm that just gives me chills when it works with everything else. Gregg - what's that duet album? Dried Rat? Dried Rat Dog? Man...My discs are all in boxes because I'm moving and my new iPod doesn't have any of my CD's on it yet (stupid old iPod busted for no reason...) That album has some amazing melodies that have great rhythmic counterpoint with what's going on with the percussion.
What AM I talking about?
So yeah - if the horn is "noodling" (UGH!) the music is no good - and a horn player with no real sense of time of his/her own playing "free" tends to sound like "noodling" - and then I want to punch myself in the face and leave immediately, unless someone else in the group is killing it.
Everyone should go out and buy a ton of early ESP discs and Brotzmann's "Machine Gun" and "F*ck de Boere" (That's the name of the album, admins!) and maybe some Albert Ayler "Greenwich Village" on Impulse!, then you can start making connections for yourself, rather than go to a forum and read about it and never have the chance to really experience it.
It's a slippery slope and I didn't like the "weird stuff" at first - Coltrane was my gateway drug - I started with "Live @ Seattle and thought it was TERRIBLE - got a box set that went through till late '65 and later thought "Man, I wish I hadn't given that Seattle disc set to my friend for free!"
Those early ESP's are amazing - there's one that I have, with an alto player with people I've never heard of before (Byron Allen - and not the late-night interview dude) and it is flat out amazing. I'll put that one on for friends who like jazz but not the "weird stuff" and they like it because there are melodic elements and "almost rhythmic" elements that aren't too far from what people expect in "jazz"...
I'm all over the place -
Okay - so, in the free stuff - I like to think that there are NO CONSTANTS and NO RULES - but as I said in my last post - the thing lacking for a lot of people is PRODUCTION!!!! I almost got to blows with one of my horn players when I stopped dead in a rehearsal and said "What the f are you doing?"
"I'm playing"
"No, you're noodling. Nothing you're playing is different or exceptional from what you did on the last piece we did"
"I thought we could play whatever we wanted..." (and this is a guy who I really respected and thought pretty highly of)
"No. You can't - I know it's called "free" but if you do that - then people won't care, because it's going to sound the same. It's not about notes, or rhythms of any of that - it's about what you bring to THIS CERTAIN PIECE - because it's NOT LIKE THE LAST PIECE"
The rhythms were different, the tonality was different, but here's a very competent horn player playing basically the same kind of thing with the same kind of ideas...which means he didn't have any ideas at all.
So I made him sit there for the rest of the practice and listen to the rest of the group without him playing - then maybe he could get a few ideas in his head without his fingers feeling the need to noodle around on his horn.
Harsh, perhaps, but the next rehearsal he totally changed - rhythmically interesting, totally melodic etc - he started pushing the others in the group rather than float over what everyone was doing. His PRODUCTIONAL qualities improved immensely once someone let him know that he was coasting and playing crap. ANd I love when someone will let me know that - I'll have an off night and my buddy will say "Dude - step it up" and it reminds me that I can't just coast. You gotta be melodic, gotta be rhythmic, gotta be the middle-man between two people - gotta be the everyman for every situation. And it's great when other people who know you can do the same. A quartet where every member can change their role at the drop of a hat is amazing - and a rare thing indeed - and it's fun working towards that and having it and it's sad once it's over.
Anyway - Not sure if that's entirely on topic but I gotta hit the hay (with a drumstick)
So to continue - even if the entire rhythm section is playing "free" - seemingly no constant - if the sax player (let's use "sax") plays with any sort of gusto or panache or what-have-you - there will be his/her rhythms over what's going on. I love when Brotzmann plays melodically - there's something about his almost child-like sense of rhtyhm that just gives me chills when it works with everything else. Gregg - what's that duet album? Dried Rat? Dried Rat Dog? Man...My discs are all in boxes because I'm moving and my new iPod doesn't have any of my CD's on it yet (stupid old iPod busted for no reason...) That album has some amazing melodies that have great rhythmic counterpoint with what's going on with the percussion.
What AM I talking about?
So yeah - if the horn is "noodling" (UGH!) the music is no good - and a horn player with no real sense of time of his/her own playing "free" tends to sound like "noodling" - and then I want to punch myself in the face and leave immediately, unless someone else in the group is killing it.
Everyone should go out and buy a ton of early ESP discs and Brotzmann's "Machine Gun" and "F*ck de Boere" (That's the name of the album, admins!) and maybe some Albert Ayler "Greenwich Village" on Impulse!, then you can start making connections for yourself, rather than go to a forum and read about it and never have the chance to really experience it.
It's a slippery slope and I didn't like the "weird stuff" at first - Coltrane was my gateway drug - I started with "Live @ Seattle and thought it was TERRIBLE - got a box set that went through till late '65 and later thought "Man, I wish I hadn't given that Seattle disc set to my friend for free!"
Those early ESP's are amazing - there's one that I have, with an alto player with people I've never heard of before (Byron Allen - and not the late-night interview dude) and it is flat out amazing. I'll put that one on for friends who like jazz but not the "weird stuff" and they like it because there are melodic elements and "almost rhythmic" elements that aren't too far from what people expect in "jazz"...
I'm all over the place -
Okay - so, in the free stuff - I like to think that there are NO CONSTANTS and NO RULES - but as I said in my last post - the thing lacking for a lot of people is PRODUCTION!!!! I almost got to blows with one of my horn players when I stopped dead in a rehearsal and said "What the f are you doing?"
"I'm playing"
"No, you're noodling. Nothing you're playing is different or exceptional from what you did on the last piece we did"
"I thought we could play whatever we wanted..." (and this is a guy who I really respected and thought pretty highly of)
"No. You can't - I know it's called "free" but if you do that - then people won't care, because it's going to sound the same. It's not about notes, or rhythms of any of that - it's about what you bring to THIS CERTAIN PIECE - because it's NOT LIKE THE LAST PIECE"
The rhythms were different, the tonality was different, but here's a very competent horn player playing basically the same kind of thing with the same kind of ideas...which means he didn't have any ideas at all.
So I made him sit there for the rest of the practice and listen to the rest of the group without him playing - then maybe he could get a few ideas in his head without his fingers feeling the need to noodle around on his horn.
Harsh, perhaps, but the next rehearsal he totally changed - rhythmically interesting, totally melodic etc - he started pushing the others in the group rather than float over what everyone was doing. His PRODUCTIONAL qualities improved immensely once someone let him know that he was coasting and playing crap. ANd I love when someone will let me know that - I'll have an off night and my buddy will say "Dude - step it up" and it reminds me that I can't just coast. You gotta be melodic, gotta be rhythmic, gotta be the middle-man between two people - gotta be the everyman for every situation. And it's great when other people who know you can do the same. A quartet where every member can change their role at the drop of a hat is amazing - and a rare thing indeed - and it's fun working towards that and having it and it's sad once it's over.
Anyway - Not sure if that's entirely on topic but I gotta hit the hay (with a drumstick)
murphinelli
Senior Member
I second the motion...This is good stuff guys. Keep it coming. And Colonel, get some sleep!
jazzgregg
Pioneer Member
You're playing devil's advocate again, right=) While happy surprises and accidents indeed do and should occur, happily, they should not be borne out of inability. Losing time or the '1' will never lead to a 'happy accident'.
Colonel- it's 'The Dried Rat Dog' and yeah, it's amazing, one of my favourite Brotz albums. It takes a really special drummer to thrown down with that guy.
And thanks as well, k3ng and murph I appreciate it too.
G
thats, me DA. Aydee, backwards..
some guys just get lost sometimes, Gregg, that's all. : )
Deltadrummer
Platinum Member
Steamer
Platinum Member
I should have been more specific about what it is that I liked about this book or to be even more specific regarding a certain chapter in the book.
At the time it came out in 1981 it is the first book to my knowledge that covered in any depth the topic of phrasing in "Meter within Meter" {Pg.16-31} in modern jazz drumming in the style developed first by Roy Haynes and later to be extended on by Jack himself.
This is the section I eat up right away and spent time working on applying my own ideas too {particularly the hat} based on the examples given included on page 31 about suggestions on a "practice approach" and "ways of practice" in actual group performance situations.
I'm sure others have taken the concepts further in written form since but at the time {81} it helped understand the process of phrasing/meter within meter playing using the whole kit in one sense of flow that Jack is well known for.related to concepts in modern jazz drumming.
Deltadrummer
Platinum Member
Thanks for the historical insight. I am going to see Roy Haynes in December at a clinic, so I can do my homework with this book and ask the right questions.
Steamer
Platinum Member
Your welcome and enjoy the clinic Ken. Roy's still kicking musical jazz butt in his mid 80's. Inspiring!