keeping the form

friday53

Member
Hi Guys
I struggle with keeping the form of a tune..(jazz tunes im talking about mainly)...i try to follow the changes on the sheet but once i get lost.....im out for good.......no way back in.
Anybody struggle with and get round this problem....?
Kev
 
Hi Guys
I struggle with keeping the form of a tune..(jazz tunes im talking about mainly)...i try to follow the changes on the sheet but once i get lost.....im out for good.......no way back in.
Anybody struggle with and get round this problem....?
Kev

I've found that I get my best results when I really know the tune. Really know, as in, I can sing the entire head, and hear the changes in my mind while singing. Traditional blues-based tunes and standard 32-bar AABA stuff is pretty easy to start off with. Something irregular like "Alone Together" is a lot more fun when you have the head deeply memorized, chart or no.

It also helps to really get steeped in the music, like, listen to jazz all the time. You'll pick up typical changes, forms and other genre markers almost by osmosis.
 
Agreed. Learn the song, not just the drumming but the whole song. You should know where you are at all times by learning any lyrics and committing the structure to memory. That way you can point out to the other musicians where they have gone wrong. Ha.
 
For me, if I have a song I'm unfamiliar with, I write out the form on paper. Seeing it with my own eyes, using my own personal notation system...that does it for me. After I compile the info I need and write it down, I usually never have to look at it again, because I got it. But I have to write it down one time to get it.

A drummer should know the form at all times, so if someone else gets lost, you don't. That's a trainwreck situation. Getting lost in the form....is unacceptable.

My bass player gets lost in the form over solos a lot. It's up to me and the guitarist to maintain the form when that happens. Sometimes in certain situations, the guitarist, to avoid a trainwreck, will adjust to the bass players mistake. Those things can't catch me unaware. I need to understand the form, and understand which part got cut, when we go into damage control mode.

OMG if I got lost in the form, that would very much trouble me.
 
As a multi-talented musician my advice is to learn what every musician is playing at what point in the song. Learn more than just the drums parts, that way you can listen to everyone else and know what part you're at.
 
You shouldn't really need to follow the changes, or look at the page, or count, unless the tune is something really weird-- most of them are based on standard forms: blues, or AABA, or AABA with a tag, or 16+16. With a blues you can orient yourself around the turnaround-- the last four bars of the form, which lead strongly back to the top; with an AABA you can orient yourself around the bridge-- the contrasting section that leads to the last A, that leads to the top of the form. I suspect whatever tunes you're playing are extremely standard, and probably what you need to do is listen more to recordings of them, learn to sing the melody, and learn any standard kicks or arrangement elements.

I wrote a blog post about getting lost here-- maybe a few useful things in there.
 
I can see where following the changes would be tough, especially during solos. Listening for changes would require a very good ear.

Most tunes are going to be AABA, but there are some exceptions. Usually jazz guys will call out the form before playing, or notate it on the chart. Don't be afraid to ask about the form before you play it.
 
In my world, the solo normally follows the structure of the verse, or sometimes a verse and chorus, or sometimes the verse, chorus and bridge.

It easy to hear which part(s) the solo is utilizing. So usually it's just a matter of singing the song in the back of my mind, which happens automatically anyway.

IDK getting lost in the form to me is like not paying attention, daydreaming. I have this function where the form is maintained without me even having to remember it. It's there like my name, thankfully. Almost like a photographic memory. Serves me well and I never had to develop it, I always had good form memory. (Counting blessings)

Losing form is a mental lapse with people who don't have the form ingrained like their name. I'm sure there's more than one explanation. This is assuming the rest of the band knows the form. When one or more of the others makes a form blunder, then it's time to think on your feet, are they correcting the form after the blunder or did they alter the form to accommodate their mistake.

I do lose form on my standalone drum solos after about 8 bars. I need all the brainpower I can get to come up with something that to me is barely mediocre, and my form memory suffers as a result. If I didn't have to worry about form or not dropping the time, I could solo a lot easier. Anyone can do an out of time solo, even me. I don't allow myself that option. It's when the solo has to follow the form, and not drop tempo/meter that's my personal hill to climb.

Always something to work on. Luckily I am only called to solo like once out of every 10 gigs. I don't really fret if my solos suck, because I accept that I'm kind of retarded in that area. I cut myself a break. I never got into drumming to solo.
 
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at least once per gig a tune is called that I am not completely familiar with ... when you are on the bandstand and not familiar with a tune there is no possible way to learn the melody right?.... right

here is what I do ...

I get the form ... then choose a melody that I am familiar with and just sort of subconsciously sing that in my head through solos

for example .... if the tune is a 32 bar AABA ... which a shit load of tunes are ... you could sing any 8 bar melody you are extremely familiar with and keep your place in the form all while properly marking for and with other accompanists
... maybe that melody is Mary Had a Little Lamb... perfect ... sing that melody 4 times and you are through the form ... boom!

it also helps to be able to just feel measure groupings without a melody attached ... 4s, 8s, 12s, 16s ... this is something any and every gigging musician should have internalized ... even if you are getting to 12 or 16 by simply stacking 4s

have fun and play free ... less thinking more drumming
 
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Memorizing song lyrics and singing along with the song -- even silently -- is good advice.

So is understanding the song form. In addition to the 32-bar AABA form, memorize -- commit to heart -- 12-bar blues and 16-bar blues.

Try practicing playing (time and/or solos/fills) for 2-bars, 4-bars, and 8-bars until you don't have to count them. You can feel them.

Best,
skf
 
A drummer should be able to play the entire song, completely unaccompanied, from memory.

Anything less and there's a form issue in the mind of the drummer.
 
In my world, the solo normally follows the structure of the verse, or sometimes a verse and chorus, or sometimes the verse, chorus and bridge.

It easy to hear which part(s) the solo is utilizing. So usually it's just a matter of singing the song in the back of my mind, which happens automatically anyway.

It depends on the style of music, and the player soloing. If the OP is listening for changes, and the soloist is using the guide tones to create a different scale, or if they are using tritone substitution to change some of the underlying chords, you might run into trouble... depending on your ear.

Ultimately I'd stay away from the changes and just think about the form. Again, most songs are going to be AABA. Maybe when playing the song through, before the solos, try and mark the end of each section with a fill or accent, and teach yourself the song before you get to the solo section.

As others have said, if it's a standard tune then play the melody (or sing the lyrics) in your head to keep on track.
 
A drummer should be able to play the entire song, completely unaccompanied, from memory.

Anything less and there's a form issue in the mind of the drummer.

there really is zero point to playing jazz unaccompanied ... unless you are just having fun for the hell of it in your practice room there really is no point because everything you play from dynamics to comps is almost always coming from what the rest of the musicians are playing and how they chose to interpret the tune on that given night

you could play Autumn Leaves 100 times and each time it will be completely different ... and very drastically different sometimes ... dig what I'm saying ?

form wise it will remain the same for the most part ... but that could possibly be the only recognizable element ... and groups are known to take liberties with forms as well
 
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there really is zero point to playing jazz unaccompanied ... unless you are just having fun for the hell of it in your practice room there really is no point because everything you play from dynamics to comps is almost always coming from what the rest of the musicians are playing and how they chose to interpret the tune on that given night

you could play Autumn Leaves 100 times and each time it will be completely different ... and very drastically different sometimes ... dig what I'm saying ?

Amen! Jazz is a different beast than rock/pop. The form is important, but the key is the inter-player communication and interaction. Jazz is more about listening to each other and complementing each other's parts. It's almost as if the group is simultaneously creating something new while playing the song.

There's little benefit to playing jazz by yourself (as a drummer), as you won't have any interaction with other players... without other players, you're just keeping time.

I always point people to some of the Keith Jarrett, Gary Peacock, Jack Dejohnette recordings. I know they aren't the most current recordings, but it shows you how they take a song and then just go with it, listening to each other to see where the song goes next.
 
there really is zero point to playing jazz unaccompanied ... unless you are just having fun for the hell of it in your practice room there really is no point because everything you play from dynamics to comps is almost always coming from what the rest of the musicians are playing and how they chose to interpret the tune on that given night

you could play Autumn Leaves 100 times and each time it will be completely different ... and very drastically different sometimes ... dig what I'm saying ?

form wise it will remain the same for the most part ... but that could possibly be the only recognizable element ... and groups are known to take liberties with forms as well

True. I wasn't taking into consideration all forms of music. I guess I was referring to million selling music/arrangements that are more or less frozen in place, like "Hotel California"... nothing truly improvisational.

When you are mainly listening and reacting around a form like jazz.... that's a higher form of music. I'm more referring to the fast foods of music, not the Zagat rated restaurants of music.

I think it's safe to say that in today's live music climate, cover music is more prevalent to the average person than the higher forms of music/musical communication. Which has nothing to do with the topic really.
 
Amen! Jazz is a different beast than rock/pop. The form is important, but the key is the inter-player communication and interaction. Jazz is more about listening to each other and complementing each other's parts. It's almost as if the group is simultaneously creating something new while playing the song.

There's little benefit to playing jazz by yourself (as a drummer), as you won't have any interaction with other players... without other players, you're just keeping time.

I always point people to some of the Keith Jarrett, Gary Peacock, Jack Dejohnette recordings. I know they aren't the most current recordings, but it shows you how they take a song and then just go with it, listening to each other to see where the song goes next.

That's just BeBop, which hasn't been popular for a number of years. Pretty much everything after and before has had prearranged drum parts. From swing to avantgarde.
 
That's just BeBop, which hasn't been popular for a number of years. Pretty much everything after and before has had prearranged drum parts. From swing to avantgarde.

I can't tell if that's sarcasm or not...

Bebop was popular from the early 40s until the 50s; and while it didn't have prearranged drum parts, it was much more arranged than most of today's jazz.

Today we have a plurality of styles in jazz, but it is extremely rare to find prearranged parts for any instrument, never mind jazz.

Granted you have some big band acts out there that are fairly arranged, and smooth jazz, but the jazz that most people think of is not prearranged. Jazz is about the interaction between players, the improvisation and comping that happens.

You mentioned avante garde jazz, which is often the most free and has the least pre-arranged parts. This is one of the most famous 'free' pieces, called Free Jazz. This is avante garde, and as you can tell all the musicians are improvising parts, specifically to be dissonant an challenge the listener's understanding of harmony and rhythm.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi358Xd-7bKAhVDt4MKHR1pA5AQtwIIPzAG&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DYedVpRzF900&usg=AFQjCNEecyf2rzAYLLRVM6mLzi_9JrmCzA&sig2=3dmxhH46bMgp1kp8fSDQIg&bvm=bv.112064104,d.amc

Again, I hope you were being sarcastic and I just misunderstood. If you weren't, I'd start with Wikipedia for a quick overview of the timeline of jazz, and some of the core concepts. After that it's just a matter of listening and exploring all the vast material out there.
 
- Learn the song. Super well.
- Slow down.
- Learn about the basic song structures.
- Don't expect to learn these things quickly. It will improve with practice and experience, though.
 
I can't tell if that's sarcasm or not...

Bebop was popular from the early 40s until the 50s; and while it didn't have prearranged drum parts, it was much more arranged than most of today's jazz.

Today we have a plurality of styles in jazz, but it is extremely rare to find prearranged parts for any instrument, never mind jazz.

Granted you have some big band acts out there that are fairly arranged, and smooth jazz, but the jazz that most people think of is not prearranged. Jazz is about the interaction between players, the improvisation and comping that happens.

You mentioned avante garde jazz, which is often the most free and has the least pre-arranged parts. This is one of the most famous 'free' pieces, called Free Jazz. This is avante garde, and as you can tell all the musicians are improvising parts, specifically to be dissonant an challenge the listener's understanding of harmony and rhythm.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi358Xd-7bKAhVDt4MKHR1pA5AQtwIIPzAG&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DYedVpRzF900&usg=AFQjCNEecyf2rzAYLLRVM6mLzi_9JrmCzA&sig2=3dmxhH46bMgp1kp8fSDQIg&bvm=bv.112064104,d.amc

Again, I hope you were being sarcastic and I just misunderstood. If you weren't, I'd start with Wikipedia for a quick overview of the timeline of jazz, and some of the core concepts. After that it's just a matter of listening and exploring all the vast material out there.

Err not. My take on it is that Avantgarde is about coming up with new forms, so as such usually has choicely placed read arranged parts to distinguish between the turkey and meatloaf. Whereas free jazz is just a reversion to more comfortable forms. BeBop or Bop based on a big name soloist over a rhythm section playing a form was eclipsed by Hard Bop which consisted of a smaller ensemble playing tighter choreographed arrangements. Cool Jazz, Bossa Nova, Funk etc. all have specific forms, but the drums have specific parts in each song.

Anyway, the opinion that you can just jam-O-long to any Jazz song using the form is too popular to rebut on this forum whether it is true or not, and I don't care about it that much. Let's just say that there are differing opinions on to what extent jazz is actually improvised, and that a large portion of jazz is not. Eg Big Band.
 
My take on it is that Avantgarde is about coming up with new forms, so as such usually has choicely placed read arranged parts to distinguish between the turkey and meatloaf. Whereas free jazz is just a reversion to more comfortable forms.

I think you need to do a little digging into jazz first, it sounds like you might be a little confused. Free jazz is jazz that is free from traditional contstraints, like harmony, rhythm, and form. Check out the youtube link in my last post, that is quintessential Free jazz.

Avant garde is cutting edge music, so it;s difficult to define, but if you look at John Zorn, there is form, but not in the traditional sense. Here are some clips from his Naked City album (one of his most popular). I know htis is from the late 80s, but this is still considered avant garde, even if it's a little dated. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=video&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiAv7r40LjKAhUhk4MKHamRACcQtwIIJTAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D-HLY6ucn674&usg=AFQjCNG-Y6xqxCtJOlz9rWrsTWFHc4Kfqw&sig2=mOKokt_PP9Vb5YQpKtPZ8A&bvm=bv.112064104,d.amc

BeBop or Bop based on a big name soloist over a rhythm section playing a form was eclipsed by Hard Bop which consisted of a smaller ensemble playing tighter choreographed arrangements. Cool Jazz, Bossa Nova, Funk etc. all have specific forms, but the drums have specific parts in each song.

Again, I think you need to dig a little deeper into jazz and its history. Big Name soloists over a rhythm section was called swing, these are players like Coleman Hawkins who were replaced by bebop. This was popular from the 30s until around the mid 1940s.

Bebop were smaller groups playing less arranged standards at a much faster pace. Bebop was early 40s - early 50s.

Hard bop was the inclusion of gospel and R&B influences into bop playing. Typically hard bop was played at (slightly) slower tempos

Cool jazz also came about in the 1950s as a reaction to the fast pace of hard bop and post bop. Cool jazz used relaxed tempos and softer tones than bebop (think Miles Davis And Chet Baker).

Bossa Nova became popular with jazz musicians in the 1960s, but isn't really a jazz genre. Often jazz players will play a bossa nova form and rhythm and improvise over it (Stan Getz).

Funk is not jazz and comes from R&B influences. In the 70s jazz started to fuse with funk, but on its own funk is not jazz.

Anyway, the opinion that you can just jam-O-long to any Jazz song using the form is too popular to rebut on this forum whether it is true or not, and I don't care about it that much. Let's just say that there are differing opinions on to what extent jazz is actually improvised, and that a large portion of jazz is not. Eg Big Band.

No one's "jamming along", I think you aren't getting some of the core concepts of jazz. Jazz is about interpretation and interaction. This goes all the way to the roots of jazz in Congo Square.

I'd say that there aren't any differing opinions on the subject; improvisation is at the core of jazz. Big Band was heavily arranged, as it was dance music, but there was still improvisation. Based on some of your responses, it sounds like you aren't that familiar with jazz. Look up Ted Gioia's The History of Jazz. That's a great resource that might help you with the timeline of jazz and the trends. It will take you from the 1890s up to today, and might help you get a better understanding.
 
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