MrInsanePolack
Platinum Member
Oh I see it. I was guessing that was the one for sale, I was suggesting for his own pedal. You know, keep what's comfortable and all.
Just another old school D-bag that sucks at double bass...twitch tecnique?
- Thread starter thrashdrummer
- Start date
thrashdrummer
Member
Thats the one for sale right now, not the one I own...but the one I own is in terrible shape, looks way worse than this pictured one lol I'll post a pic tomorrow
Thanks for the tip! Yeah, my pedal is pretty bad though, might be best to just start over with a new one. I'll post a pic tomorrow of it
thrashdrummer
Member
This thing looks pretty sweet the more I read about it. Hmmmm....now you got me thinkingYou might wanna consider this:
Trick Drums P1V6DW Retrofit Driveshaft for DW Pedals
Retrofit Aluminum Drive Shaft for DW Double-bass Pedalswww.sweetwater.com
The driveshaft is typically the failure feature of double pedals. This one wont fail, and if it does, its rebuildable. There is also 0 slop with this driveshaft. It's like having 2 drums without the second drum.
MrInsanePolack
Platinum Member
It's fantastic. Best piece of hardware I own.This thing looks pretty sweet the more I read about it. Hmmmm....now you got me thinking
I've posted this before, but you can get the driveshaft and a used version of the pedal you want for usually under the cost of the same pedal new.
If you do buy the driveshaft, make sure you get the correct one for the pedal. There are 2 versions, one for DW and one for most everything else.
Frosticles
Silver Member
Punk & Metal drummer for 40+ years (54 now) It get's harder every advancing year. This C-19 has been a nightmare & I am dreading playing at full pelt again. Going to take me ages to get tour fit again.
One word of advice - Don't be stingy on your pedals. Cheap ones will hinder you. Buy the best you can afford. DW5000's at the minimum. Spend time on setting them up & make sure they are balanced so they "swing together" Poor, or badly set up pedals can be 90% of the problem.
One word of advice - Don't be stingy on your pedals. Cheap ones will hinder you. Buy the best you can afford. DW5000's at the minimum. Spend time on setting them up & make sure they are balanced so they "swing together" Poor, or badly set up pedals can be 90% of the problem.
thrashdrummer
Member
Good trick to know, when I swing my current pedals together the right one goes back and forward several times, the left one barely goes once. The tension adjusters seem to be pretty seized up, might have to get out the torch to move them lol. It's trashed though, sticks on hard hits, etc.. I don't think I want to mess with it so picking up something new today hopefully
Thanks man!!
Jeff Almeyda
Senior Consultant
I’m 53 and I play metal double bass up to 220 BPM or so as a touring musician. Working on my swivel now to be steadier and hopefully a bit faster.
The key is not hitting so damn hard!
Seriously, back off 25% on the impact or more and concentrate on smooth ankle strokes. You may want to look at your monitoring situation. Can you hear the bass drum?
Move from being the young hot shot to the crafty veteran.Tim Waterson is older and way faster than me , it can definitely be done.
The key is not hitting so damn hard!
Seriously, back off 25% on the impact or more and concentrate on smooth ankle strokes. You may want to look at your monitoring situation. Can you hear the bass drum?
Move from being the young hot shot to the crafty veteran.Tim Waterson is older and way faster than me , it can definitely be done.
SYMBOLIC DEATH
Senior Member
I'm 47 and top out at about 240bp. I'm learning heel toe currently, and double bass in general is a lot of work. One thing to keep in mind while you work on your feet is your goal of 180bpm is just entering into the zone where you start to use some ankle movement. Don't get down on yourself for using your whole leg playing what you play, because at those tempos that's whats needed.
As the tempo increases you use less leg and more ankle, as this happens your ankles will drop naturally as you use more ankle.
Should you want to start using heel toe it makes more sense and I've found it's easier at +200bpm, and remember it's more ball of foot-toe. There doesn't need to be an actual heel strike, but it helps when your first learning heel-toe.
The "twitch" technique isn't really a technique that's used due to it being pretty much uncontrollable and inconsistent. Yes you can get a bunch on notes out quickly but they are all over the place.
Keep at it you can get there.
As the tempo increases you use less leg and more ankle, as this happens your ankles will drop naturally as you use more ankle.
Should you want to start using heel toe it makes more sense and I've found it's easier at +200bpm, and remember it's more ball of foot-toe. There doesn't need to be an actual heel strike, but it helps when your first learning heel-toe.
The "twitch" technique isn't really a technique that's used due to it being pretty much uncontrollable and inconsistent. Yes you can get a bunch on notes out quickly but they are all over the place.
Keep at it you can get there.
bud7h4
Silver Member
The caveat with heel toe is that it takes a long time to get the strokes even (the volume, not the tempo); to where it doesn't sound like R R L L R R L L when played very fast. The rebound stroke is inherently softer, but this can be overcome with work.
There are no average heel toe players who sound good to me, only the very best do it really well. Again I'm talking about the very fast stuff.
Single strokes on the other hand, while they take time to build speed, at least you're playing evenly all the while you work on speed.
As for the "twitch" technique. I've heard this term used two ways: One, to simply try and describe the type of motion in the ankles when playing fast normally, and Two the actual "twitch technique", which, my humble advice would be to forget you ever heard the term. It's rubbish (no apologies).
Watch George Kollias play. At 270 BPM his beaters are still hammering the batter heads. That's how it's done. No gimmicks.
Proper technique and maximizing the pedals' designed function should be achieved conjointly, otherwise you're leaving a lot on the table. In time I realized the better my foot technique gets, the more my pedals are working for me.
There are no average heel toe players who sound good to me, only the very best do it really well. Again I'm talking about the very fast stuff.
Single strokes on the other hand, while they take time to build speed, at least you're playing evenly all the while you work on speed.
As for the "twitch" technique. I've heard this term used two ways: One, to simply try and describe the type of motion in the ankles when playing fast normally, and Two the actual "twitch technique", which, my humble advice would be to forget you ever heard the term. It's rubbish (no apologies).
Watch George Kollias play. At 270 BPM his beaters are still hammering the batter heads. That's how it's done. No gimmicks.
Proper technique and maximizing the pedals' designed function should be achieved conjointly, otherwise you're leaving a lot on the table. In time I realized the better my foot technique gets, the more my pedals are working for me.
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Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX
Well-known member
I agree with this for 2 reasons:
1. I am old, and think that the other variations are "cheating" <---but also, wisdom has led me to believe that any method works as long as the end result is the correct sound and timing for the situation....but still...just a little cheating
2. I don't have twitch muscles in my legs/ankles....so I can't do it anyways. Which is maybe why I am sour and manifests in #1
bud7h4
Silver Member
Just to be clear I wasn't suggesting Kollias is muscling out 270 BPM with his legs lol. I'm saying his ankle motion is so well developed that he's getting out of the pedals everything he's putting into them resulting in hard-hitting ultra-fast singles.
I also think heel toe is a perfectly legit and practical technique, as much so as doubles with the hands. It's actually just about necessary when playing certain patterns with your feet which would be virtually impossible (or at the very least impractical) to do playing LRLR.
thrashdrummer
Member
This was a huge thing for me to play with this weekend, ugh, "thats what she said" (couldn't resist) okay, back on track...
Yes! I hated practice pads because I felt like they were just dead weight with no rebound, but I've backed off a bit on the power and noticed I'm still getting a good strike and am actually able to hit the practice pad without it feeling like I'm smashing my feet against a concrete block. Will take some getting used to but I'm liking it so far, this is probably why I destroy so many bass drum heads too... Thank you!!
This is very helpful and correlates (with above) as after watching my legs when I shift to double bass I think I'm just hitting too hard, my range of motion is too large, especially for the 140-160bpm stuff. I'm going to shoot for a consistent 180bpm with the "leg" style I've been doing (but a little softer, more controlled, tighter.smaller contractions, work in a little more ankles at higher speeds, etc..) with this new pedal I'm very comfortable at 150bpm so I'm pretty excited to keep training
Yeah, after spending a little time with the "twitch" style you are correct, it's crap, I just got excited I could hit so many strokes so fast but yeah, I don't see a future in it....not even sure how I would train it, seems like blind luck at times...
Heel toe sounds fun, at one time years ago I do remember trying to get serious with it breifly and was doing "okay" with it in small runs, but honestly, if I can hit a consistent 180bpm that doesn't leave me completely wiped out for the rest of the set, I'd be a very happy man
Thank you!!
Yeah, I'm dumping the twitch thing (see above) long story short you guys are right, it's not really a technique...
George Kollias reminds me of back when I got into bodybuilding, I would look at FLEX magazines and see the steroid tigers and think "no way, why am I even bothering" lol
MrInsanePolack
Platinum Member
What did you end up getting? Curiosity killing the cat and all...with this new pedal I'm very comfortable at 150bpm so I'm pretty excited to keep training
thrashdrummer
Member
So, I ended up going with the TAMA direct drive pedal, unfortunately it didn't make me an ultimate double bass beast immediately but you know, I knew that wouldn't happen (okay, maybe 1% of me was hoping)
It's a very responsive pedal though and if I was a single bass drummer a new pedal probably would have been all I needed, my right foot speeds are very fast now (well, for me at least lol) starting to wonder how I got by so long on my old pedal, it's a hurting unit...
I want to take this new pedal very seriously though, it's probably the most expensive thing I have ever purchased besides a car haha.
I tried a few experiments, closely watched how I play, it was interesting...
*edit - after watching a few videos at work today I don't think what I'm doing is called the swivel technique, I think it is called the "slide" technique so just replace anytime I say "swivel" with "slide" in the following comments
- seems my right leg just naturally does the "swivel" when I do fast doubles/high tempos/etc.. honestly had no idea I was until I watched myself play. I can also kind of naturally shift to more ankle use if I hammer away singles really quick. No idea how, I'm just doing it...it's far from perfect, but I'm "doing something" when I start thinking about it too much while I'm doing it though I kind of lose the mindless connection I have so I'm trying to avoid analyzing it too much at this early phase lol
- My left leg can't do fast doubles very well, honestly it can't even do mid tempo doubles very well...definitely not several in a row, and does not swivel unless I consciously make it and when I do, it's bad and forced. I am not using one bit of ankle ever, it's like a big dead fish tied to my knee. It only has good power/speed (140bpm+) when I slam my foot down where as my right leg can just tap the pedal and get a good solid strike. For some reason though when I do really quick "bursts" of double bass (200bpm+) some kind of akward/ugly swivel happens to my left leg/foot for those few, very quick, short hits but no matter how hard I try I can't replicate it unless I do double bass bursts. Seems I just naturally do "something" for the bursts...can't isolate it though...and not even sure what it is I'm doing haha
Here is the best realistic training program I have shat out for hopefully strengthening my left leg...
1 - play with whatever nonsense is on the radio with only my left foot (warm up)
2 - play with faster thrash metal songs (singles and D-beats) with only my left leg
3 - play Iron maiden songs (you know that same old tempo they always use) doing left leg doubles through the whole song
4 - Play steady/constant singles with left foot through entire faster random songs
5 - While this "left leg" training is happening I will also hit 30 min or so a day of just straight up double bass, doing what I've always done but not so damn hard (with my left foot at least) in the 140+ range (gradually increasing until I hit 180 consistently/etc)
Sorry for the huge response to asking what pedal I bought but your original response and the rest of the members motivational replies have lit a god damn fire in me I can't seem to put out so I'm all in now!!
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Old PIT Guy
Well-known member
When my feet are warmed up I can manage what I call a 'floating ankle thing' and it's pretty fast. I don't know anything about fast twitch muscles, but that does describe it somewhat. My feet are nearly level with the pedals and the heels are hanging off the back (size 11 foot) and I can sustain a single stroke roll at a good clip for a measure or two but then it degrades. If I had to guess I'd say it's around 200. I haven't worked to sustain it but I was a little freaked out when I pulled it off out of the blue for the first time. Then I realized I couldn't sustain it and the glow faded. So now I'm working at trying to initialize it for a measure or less for use with a fill and that's proving just as tough. Donati does it with a short fill on one of the Planet X albums and it's so over the top it's one of those things you want to do for the sheer satisfaction of it.