Jazz to some people...

oldskoolsoul

Silver Member
I agree with was has been written before, that or you like something or not..

There is also nowhere a rule written that everyone and especially every musician HAS TO like jazz..

But what annoys me a lot, is that people who basically never made an effort to really dive into a certain genre are oft the first ones to
criticize that certain genre..

Happens also a lot (also on this forum) with hiphop..

People who only hear and dislike a certain sort of rap or hiphop are also oft very eager to express the opinion that all hiphop and rap is crap and made by non musicians who need samples because they can not play themselves, etc..

My opinion is: when you know nothing about a certain genre, you should also just shut up about a certain genre..

Saying that something is crap, without any background knowlegde or information, is just a meaningless opinion and therefore kinda useless..
 

Mongrel

Silver Member
It's subjective alright. Ain't no doubt about it.



But this just isn't true.....at least not as an absolute it's not.

I can think of a host of things that I didn't used to like but have come to appreciate or even love, due to nothing more than time, further experience or increased exposure. I can name a heap of bands that did nothing for me at one time, but due to many factors, I've come to love, respect and appreciate.

But keeping to the topic at hand, I didn't always "get jazz" either. But as per my first post, I started listening to the wrong stuff (for me, at the time). It was too advanced and I didn't know WTF was going on. Hell, I didn't even much like Elvin Jones when I first heard him for the same reasons. Now I love them. All because someone bothered to show me another angle that I could potentially "get". That lead to an appreciation of the next thing, then the next thing and so on, until low and behold here I am enamoured with Charlie Parker's blistering runs and discordant squawks and squeaks, Elvin's other worldy ability to push the boundaries of time and meter.......and a shit ton of other things that once held absolutely no interest for me.

Those that know me will tell you I'm not really all that unique mate. So I know I'm not the only one whose perceptions and appreciations have changed or evolved. Many things I once hated, I've come to love.........except pumpkin......and carrots. I'll always detest them!!
Ahhhh...but you are talking about about exposure not overwhelming scientific evidence as to why the superior qualities of "jazz" won you over...

Like that Elvis snippet-if they had just played a record, Mr. Everett (Elvis) may have "gotten it".... But the argument over whose "atonality" was superior went nowhere.

Yes, tastes change, we mature, we get bored and look for new things, but it's still a matter of personal taste....

For me I'm having a Sinatra moment....but I can't stand Tony Bennett....lol.
 

GetAgrippa

Platinum Member
I guess it depends on what you call "jazz". Big Band with a Singer still has a lot of appeal generally. But the instrumental stuff my three daughter's call "Elevator music". Yeah I know, I know I didn't raise them right. Jazz has influenced about every musical genre and vice versa. I love a brass section, but just a piano, stand up bass, and a drum kit trio also hit my button.
 

Mongrel

Silver Member
I guess it depends on what you call "jazz". Big Band with a Singer still has a lot of appeal generally. But the instrumental stuff my three daughter's call "Elevator music". Yeah I know, I know I didn't raise them right. Jazz has influenced about every musical genre and vice versa. I love a brass section, but just a piano, stand up bass, and a drum kit trio also hit my button.
The piano trios are actually my favorite "jazz" iteration. I "get" those with no problem....

And, you are right-we need to work out some definitions. I know big band with a singer isn't "jazz" I was just using that ss an example of how you can take something, change one element (Crom Sinstra to Bennett lol), and it will turn some people off (me in this example).

So it is more than just I don't like this "genre"....it's more like I don't care for THIS representation of the genre....

Some people will say that Bennett is "technically" a better singer. But that's not enough for me....lol.

Anyway, hopefully not a thread derail....or worse a thread HI-JACK!!!

Everything above said in consideration of how to get someone to open up to "jazz"....
 

Jeremy Bender

Platinum Member
So, I'm back after a couple days off to get things done and after reading some of the quite intereting and confusing responses, the
best thing I can think to do is simply tell him to find a subgenre that appeals to him and listen to that.

PS After reading one of the responses that left me completely puzzled, I Googled "Taylor Swift" to learn who that was and it turns out I own gear older than she is. Don't think I'll be buying any of her records anytime soon.
Everyone have a great day.
 
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Odd-Arne Oseberg

Platinum Member
If you want to "get it" have to get yourself on a steady diet. There's probably a lot of stuff you like now that you didn't get at first.

There's always an off chance that someone has never actively challenged themselves or their taste. In that case, not much anyone can do. Then it's not about jazz, it's about their general attitude in life.
 

Pocket-full-of-gold

Platinum Member
Ahhhh...but you are talking about about exposure not overwhelming scientific evidence as to why the superior qualities of "jazz" won you over...
Ah, if it's scientific merit you're after my friend, you have the wrong guy. I'm only qualified in matters of idiocy.

I do prefer Sinatra to Bennett though..

And still hate pumpkin.
 

Mongrel

Silver Member
Ah, if it's scientific merit you're after my friend, you have the wrong guy. I'm only qualified in matters of idiocy.

I do prefer Sinatra to Bennett though..

And still hate pumpkin.
I'm not even qualified in idiocy so you have me beat!

All in good fun....

Don't get me started on Andy Williams.....lol.
 

toddmc

Gold Member
So, I'm back after a couple days off to get things done and after reading some of the quite intereting and confusing responses, the
best thing I can think to do is simply tell him to find a subgenre that appeals to him and listen to that.

PS After reading one of the responses that left me completely puzzled, I Googled "Taylor Swift" to learn who that was and it turns out I own gear older than she is. Don't think I'll be buying any of her records anytime soon.
Everyone have a great day.
You had to google Taylor Swift?? How old ARE you? (If a 44 year old metal-head knows who she is you've got no excuse)! 😅 😅
 

toddmc

Gold Member
I can't tell you how much I appreciate your post....

I was thinking it was me....
Haha- no disrespect meant to Mr Bender of course :)

If he was from Timbuktu I could maybe understand it but I can tell you we get bombarded with Ms Swift 24/7 here in Oz so I can only imagine what her coverage is like in the US of A!
 

Smoke

Silver Member
I'm a fly fisherman. It's the only REAL kind of fishing there is. I play Chick Korea on my Walkman while smoking my pipe as I mend my line on the stream. If you're plunking a worm and bobber, and listening to Lynyrd Skynyrd on your boom-box while puffing a stogie, it ain't fishing.

(hee hee, sorry)
 

Pocket-full-of-gold

Platinum Member
I'm a fly fisherman. It's the only REAL kind of fishing there is. I play Chick Korea on my Walkman while smoking my pipe as I mend my line on the stream. If you're plunking a worm and bobber, and listening to Lynyrd Skynyrd on your boom-box while puffing a stogie, it ain't fishing.

(hee hee, sorry)

I really wish "worm and bobber" meant what I would like it to mean......and not what it actually means.........whatever the hell that is!!

Christ you Yanks are out there!! 😂
 

PorkPieGuy

Platinum Member
Someone close to me (who's not a musician) made the statemet to me just recently...
"The reason I can't get into jazz is cause it sounds like they're playing a different song than the other guy up there."

Now It's a safe bet he's not referring to Dixieland, Glenn Miller or Kenny G style of 'jazz'

So the question is: how to respond to a statement like that without sounding condescending, yet knowledgable and also acknowledging that they may be correct to some extent?
I always try to attempt to empathize with them and understand where they are coming from. I would say something like, "Oh man, I know a lot of that stuff can just seem like a flurry of notes. It can REALLY come across as confusing, and that's not lost on me! I think what I get out of it is..." and then possibly start with some of the elements that you enjoy. When you approach it this way, people are more apt to listen and possibly give it another shot. If not, then no big deal. If they keep carrying on about how they can't listen to jazz, then that's ok.
 

GetAgrippa

Platinum Member
We go bow fishing too. That's right, shooting fish with a crossbow. How's that for out there?!?
My brother is a fly rod enthusiast. Me-no I like to get close and personal with da fishes. I'm the bait and then just filet them on site LOL. This is a little one that I rubbed his belly and he fell asleep-I was after big brother. Actually growing up we had a boat on the Gulf of Mexico so I was a "catching fool"-then fish populations dwindled so then it turned into fishing. I like fishing-you don't get as tired LOL. Now I love to surf fish-something about not having to have a boat, I either catch sand fleas or net bait, and then I just leave the rod in a holder in the sand and have fund with the family. If I catch keepers then we have supper. I have always seen sharks-they have always been there (especially bullsharks but seen huge hammerheads, tiger, and a mako), but I sure see way more now close in shore doing their own fishing (two years in a row seen a big hammerhead like clockwork come in close and swim along the shore line, and seen a huge tiger shark do the same). Usually it's the bulls that come in close and on occasion another species-but now it's all species. Makes it adventure fishing LOL. My eldest brother and another friend do the bow fishing thing at night (my bro hunted birds with his bow too)-and man they sure catch some keepers!! I was a bow enthusiast for some time but quit after a bad experience being eaten alive by mosquitoes (I threw my bow and jumped out of my tree stand and that was that. I still get chill bumps and it haunts me-I've never seen so many mosquitoes. I probably needed a transfusion LOL. I'm getting chills now just mentioning it.
 

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trickg

Silver Member
At some point during the 1950s, jazz became very sophisticated, artistic, and exploratory. Some of the best and most famous works were not intended for non-musicians, they were made because they pushed the boundaries of what was possible, beautiful, and interesting. You have to speak the language, in order to appreciate the ideas being conveyed. And if you don't speak the language well, you cannot assert that the ideas are meaningless, or good, or bad.
This reminded me of an article that I read about what killed the Big Bands. To quickly paraphrase the article, the musicians did it to themselves because of just what you posted above - they forgot about the audience and started playing for themselves. It's an interesting article for anyone who might want to read it.


As I've posted on here many times before, my first instrument is not drums, it's trumpet. To further add to the discussion, "jazz" covers a lot of ground and within the Jazz genre, there are many sub-genres, and a person can really enjoy some of them and totally hate the others. As an example, I LOVE big band swing tunes - specifically the stuff from the golden age of the big band, the mid 1930s through the early 1950s. I'm down for "Tuxedo Junction," "Take the A Train," "In the Mood," "All of Me," "Orange Colored Sky," "Fly Me to the Moon," etc. I love listening to it as much as I love playing it.

Conversely, many people ask me when they learn I'm a trumpet player, "Oh, you must really be into Miles Davis then, right?"

Nope. Never cared for Miles, and I TRIED. I have tried several times over the years because I know that Miles is highly regarded as a Jazz trumpet player, and either I'm not sophisticated enough to "get it," or it's just not my cup of tea. It isn't that I can't appreciate it, but it's not something I'm going to go out of my way to listen to.

Mayard Ferguson? Oh yeah - all day long. He's probably my favorite jazz trumpet player.

My nephew graduated about a year ago with a degree in jazz guitar performance. To my ears, his senior recital - all written and arranged by him and performed by him and his school mates - was laughably bad. Definitely NOT something I'd say I liked. It was weird and dissonant, and didn't seem to have any structure or direction, but apparently that's what this college is promoting these days. His dad paid $80K for a degree that he can't leverage toward any kind of a job unless he continues on in academia and eventually starts teaching at the collegiate level somewhere. He's currently giving lessons out of a music store and tending bar.

To the OP, you could always see if it's newer jazz I they don't like, or anything, up to and and including Big Band swing. And did you really not know who Taylor Swift is? Like, you've never even heard her name in passing? How is that even possible?
 
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