Intuitive time

Rock Salad

Junior Member
I'm training with the metronome and it is coming along, but any intuitive sense of rhythm i had is now in hiding.
I guess it's a hump i have to get over to get from intuition to knowledge.
 

Yamaha Rider

Well-known member
I'm training with the metronome and it is coming along, but any intuitive sense of rhythm i had is now in hiding.
I guess it's a hump i have to get over to get from intuition to knowledge.
I spent most of my formative drumming playing to a 'metronome' - in the form of recorded music on cds. I don't think it harmed my sense of time at all.
 

Seafroggys

Silver Member
Or......and this is just an assumption on your part.....the intuition that you thought you had wasn't that good, and now that you're better at time, or because you now have that reference point, you subconsciously realize your timekeeping skills before weren't adequate.
 

Rock Salad

Junior Member
Absolutely I got to do this. Not doubting that at all.
Just an observation. When I used metronome sporadically before, I was always close. That was nice but, I want to tighten up more. I think it is engaging a different brain cell, and the old one i used to use for rhythm is being quiet and listening and learning. One day it will fire up again and be much smarter- I hope.
 

beatdat

Senior Member
Do you count out-loud when you practice? Do you practice to the metronome on different parts of the subdivision? They go a long way in helping you intuit time. I've been doing them regularly for a few months now, and my timing and my awareness of time have both improved - not only can I bury the click for longer, I'm can better adjust my playing when I do go out of time. Try them if you haven't yet.
 

Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX

Well-known member
Or......and this is just an assumption on your part.....the intuition that you thought you had wasn't that good, and now that you're better at time, or because you now have that reference point, you subconsciously realize your timekeeping skills before weren't adequate.
I was thinking this too. I have come across sooo many students who didn't play with a met ,and thought they had great time...but then the met is put on, and boom....

and the key is to not take our opinion as being derogatory, but as being an honest observation backed by experience. The metronome doesn't lie. It is not "Wrong". IT is a machine that does not react. I hear sooo many of these people say "well, the met is wrong. It is slowing down (or speeding up)...."

ummm....no.

Do you count out-loud when you practice? Do you practice to the metronome on different parts of the subdivision? They go a long way in helping you intuit time. I've been doing them regularly for a few months now, and my timing and my awareness of time have both improved - not only can I bury the click for longer, I'm can better adjust my playing when I do go out of time. Try them if you haven't yet.
and this is how to fix the problem...very simply put. Counting and subdivision, directed by the metronome, creates good time....end of story
 

C.M. Jones

Well-known member
You're probably too conscious of the metronome. Extreme awareness hampers intuitiveness. Even when you're playing without the metronome, you might be hearing it in your head, and it's serving as a distraction. Drumming demands mindless concentration, if that oxymoron makes sense. You need to focus without knowing you're focusing.

Practicing to a metronome is great training. Just loosen up, and everything will come together.
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
The intuitive sense of rhythm that is hiding..

Sounds like it's in the process of being replaced with the realization that what felt fine prior...doesn't line up to a click.

That's just a guess.

I know for me, only a click could teach me what even meter actually sounded like. Because pre-click...yea. Not pretty.

Stay the course.

The click is the trick.

Place your bet on the met.

Don't be a garden gnome, learn the @$%# metronome!
 

Rock Salad

Junior Member
As stated earlier, before i was using the metronome regularly I was already close. Like close. Coming out of fills with only a slight flam. I got used to trusting my intuition.
The point of the post is just an observation that now that i am training my time with the metronome more, that intuitive sense is dormant.
I am trusting the process, and look forward to the day that intuition 2.0 wakes up and takes over.
I suppose it could be the same for anyone doing this no matter how nice or rough their rhythm is. The process requires us to switch off that self reliance temporarily, and mine is in retreat right now. Which makes performances (we are fired up and rolling here,) a whole different deal than they were before. I have to count on songs that i have played hundreds of times, my tempo is less steady and i am easily led off tempo because of that intuitive sense hiding out. And I just don't feel as easy.
All part of the process, and temporary (hopefully!)
I appreciate the suggestions that I have a problem, I have been blind to things in the past, but wow those are pretty bold judgement of something you have zero direct experience of- my rhythm.
C.M. knows what i'm talking about. Good advice to relax a bit. I'm sure I will, no big rush. I am going to hit some rhythm goals first though.
 

C.M. Jones

Well-known member
As stated earlier, before i was using the metronome regularly I was already close. Like close. Coming out of fills with only a slight flam. I got used to trusting my intuition.
The point of the post is just an observation that now that i am training my time with the metronome more, that intuitive sense is dormant.
I am trusting the process, and look forward to the day that intuition 2.0 wakes up and takes over.
I suppose it could be the same for anyone doing this no matter how nice or rough their rhythm is. The process requires us to switch off that self reliance temporarily, and mine is in retreat right now. Which makes performances (we are fired up and rolling here,) a whole different deal than they were before. I have to count on songs that i have played hundreds of times, my tempo is less steady and i am easily led off tempo because of that intuitive sense hiding out. And I just don't feel as easy.
All part of the process, and temporary (hopefully!)
I appreciate the suggestions that I have a problem, I have been blind to things in the past, but wow those are pretty bold judgement of something you have zero direct experience of- my rhythm.
C.M. knows what i'm talking about. Good advice to relax a bit. I'm sure I will, no big rush. I am going to hit some rhythm goals first though.
Man, I love and respect the way you're working through this process. You'll come along just fine. Once you align your sense of feel with the metronome's perfect measurements, you'll be a true timekeeper, and you'll never look back. Stick with it. It'll happen.
 

beatdat

Senior Member
The process requires us to switch off that self reliance temporarily, and mine is in retreat right now. Which makes performances (we are fired up and rolling here,) a whole different deal than they were before. I have to count on songs that i have played hundreds of times, my tempo is less steady and i am easily led off tempo because of that intuitive sense hiding out. And I just don't feel as easy.
All part of the process, and temporary (hopefully!)
Remember: "practice like you're the worst, but play like you're the best".

Don't try to incorporate what you practice into your playing. What you practice will incorporate itself naturally into your playing over time. Until then, play however you play best.
 

tfgretsch

Junior Member
Do you count out-loud when you practice? Do you practice to the metronome on different parts of the subdivision? They go a long way in helping you intuit time. I've been doing them regularly for a few months now, and my timing and my awareness of time have both improved - not only can I bury the click for longer, I'm can better adjust my playing when I do go out of time. Try them if you haven't yet.
Hey Beatdat could you share a few met. subdivision exercises to practice ? thanks
 

Odd-Arne Oseberg

Platinum Member
I guess these things depend a lot on tempo and feel as well. Are we talking the sme stuff exactly?

Metronome exercises would be to start putting click on the ands, the eventually e' and ahs. It automatically makes it easier to think of the metronome as something you pay along with rather than follow, too.

If you want some loops, which can be more fun, I recommend checking out DrumJam, the Pete Lockett app. You can do a lot of different stuff with that one.
 

C.M. Jones

Well-known member
It automatically makes it easier to think of the metronome as something you play along with rather than follow, too.
That's a good developmental point. Early on, treat the metronome as a subtle guide, not as a dictator. Eventually, as your sense of timing becomes more refined, you and the metronome will be on the same page, and you won't even think about it. The goal is to play with subconscious proficiency, not with a rigid click in your head.
 

Noisy

Well-known member
I'm training with the metronome and it is coming along, but any intuitive sense of rhythm i had is now in hiding.
I guess it's a hump i have to get over to get from intuition to knowledge.
For a more “intuitive” time, you may want to try what some suggest on this board and practice burying the click at 20 BPMs or slower, without subdividing. I’ve seen some suggest 10 BPMs as well.

I’m new to it. I’ve tried 30 BPMs regularly for a week and 20 BPMs occasionally. Maybe search through the old threads if you are interested and reply to one of the knowledgeable poster’s messages.
 
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beatdat

Senior Member
Hey Beatdat could you share a few met. subdivision exercises to practice ? thanks
This thread, How do you count?, should give you some ideas on how to count out loud while practicing.


For a more “intuitive” time, you may want to try what some suggest on this board and practice burying the click at 20 BPMs or slower, without subdividing. I’ve seen some suggest 10 BPMs as well.

I’m new to it. I’ve tried 30 BPMs regularly for a week and 20 BPMs occasionally. Maybe search through the old threads if you are interested and reply to one of the knowledgeable poster’s messages.
I've been taking it down to 12bpm in the last couple of months. It's not easy, but definitely worth it. I do, however, count out loud and subdivide at the same time. Not sure if not subdividing is entirely feasible at really slow tempos (I think the brain is always subdividing or using some sort of reference point to keep time) or if it's beneficial to not subdivide. Some say yes, some say no. I say do whatever works best for you and helps improve your time.
 
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Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX

Well-known member
This thread, How do you count?, should give you some ideas on how to count out loud while practicing.




I've been taking it down to 12bpm in the last couple of months. It's not easy, but definitely worth it. I do, however, count out loud and subdivide at the same time. Not sure if not subdividing is entirely feasible at really slow tempos (I think the brain is always subdividing or using some sort of reference point to keep time) or if it's beneficial to not subdivide. Some say yes, some say no. I say do whatever works best for you and helps improve your time.
For me, subdividing is the ONLY way to organize the space between pulses. Anything else is guess work. You break the space down to the smallest division that makes sense to use given the tempo. The slowest I have ever needed to go was 48bpm in college. Also, at that tempo, we used visual communication of the pulse across the group to make sure we all knew where it was.
 

Dr_Watso

Platinum Member
Playing with click-perfect time and "leading" everyone else is a different skill, feel, and agreement between band-members than when everyone is feeling the time in the music together. Both ways have their place and both are valid... However, if you're used to gelling with people without metronome, going back to playing that way after a bunch of metronome practice makes things feel a little off sometimes, mostly because you're pushing the time you know feels more correct instead of listening hard to what they're doing and adapting.

Lots of melodic players absolutely LOVE when a drummer just sets the time and doesn't listen to them, some hate it, and it can depend on the type of music too.

Same thing will happen if you do a bunch of click practice and then try to play along to recordings that weren't done to a click... It'll sound "off" all of a sudden.
 

C.M. Jones

Well-known member
Same thing will happen if you do a bunch of click practice and then try to play along to recordings that weren't done to a click... It'll sound "off" all of a sudden.
And a whole lot of studio work occurs without clicks, more than some may presume. Clicks are great for slow pieces with lots of open air and caesuras, but for faster beats that beg for pure feel and freestyle grooves, submission to clicks can have a prohibitive effect. Clicks are an invaluable tool, but I prefer to treat them as a situational resource, not as an ever-present crutch.
 
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