I'm hearing the time late -

MagruderX

New Member
I realize I am "hearing/feeling" the time late. My time is pretty good and consistent, just behind the beat.
Most drummers tend to rush if anything and I have to learn to play more on top . A challenge while trying to be as relaxed as possible.
When I play w/a bass player that likes to push, it must be miserable for them. Relaxed "laid back" players seem to like my feel, but I hear on recordings I need to be more on top. Anyone ever out there needed to learn to "lay FORWARD"? hahaha
 
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opentune

Platinum Member
Well depends what you play and who with. Look at Charlie Watts, who spent a career 'behind the beat' and thats what made his band's music what it was. To be well-rounded one could strive to be able to do all 3 - behind, right on and push ahead.
Personally, when I play with a bass player that pushes, its me who is the miserable one.
 

Tiges

Well-known Member
I realize I am "hearing/feeling" the time late. My time is pretty good and consistent, just behind the beat.
Most drummers tend to rush if anything and I have to learn to play more on top . A challenge while trying to be as relaxed as possible.
When I play w/a bass player that likes to push, it must be miserable for them. Relaxed "laid back" players seem to like my feel, but I hear on recordings I need to be more on top. Anyone ever out there needed to learn to "lay FORWARD"? hahaha
Just cool on ya beats nice and steady and the feeling will come to you don't rush into it steady and fell the grove mate.
 

MagruderX

New Member
Well depends what you play and who with. Look at Charlie Watts, who spent a career 'behind the beat' and thats what made his band's music what it was. To be well-rounded one could strive to be able to do all 3 - behind, right on and push ahead.
Personally, when I play with a bass player that pushes, its me who is the miserable one.
Yeah, I get what you say. Still, I'd like to consistently be able to do all three w/control. A lot of Rock tunes need an aggressive "push" feel, IMO. I want all three in my quiver. THX for the response.
 

adamosmianski

Senior Member
It's something you can practice just like anything else. I'd start by putting on a metronome and playing an "AC/DC beat". See you if you can play right on the metronome to the point where it disappears in your ears. Then try laying back a bit, and easing forward for a bit. Sit on each one for a really long time. Record yourself and listen back.
 

GetAgrippa

Diamond Member
If you play to recordings in practice you can fall into the just behind trap-reacting to music instead of leading and playing with song you know well.
 

sumdrumguy

Senior Member
Yeah, I get what you say. Still, I'd like to consistently be able to do all three w/control. A lot of Rock tunes need an aggressive "push" feel, IMO. I want all three in my quiver. THX for the response.

I like the cut of your jib!

Put together a play list of songs that, to your ears, have that agressive push and dig into them. Players to look/listen to; Kenny Aronoff, Josh Freese, Chad Smith, etc. They tend to play right on top of the beat, with a strong forward push.

Listen to them lots. Identify what gives them that feel, and do some play-along emulating those details. It may be a struggle at first. If you are thinking your way through it, that will likely create some unnecessary tension. Let yourself suck for a while.

Go at it like a kid. Have fun playing the songs.

You won't lose the relaxed feel. You will develop the attributes to 'push' when the song calls for it.
 

MagruderX

New Member
I like the cut of your jib!

Put together a play list of songs that, to your ears, have that agressive push and dig into them. Players to look/listen to; Kenny Aronoff, Josh Freese, Chad Smith, etc. They tend to play right on top of the beat, with a strong forward push.

Listen to them lots. Identify what gives them that feel, and do some play-along emulating those details. It may be a struggle at first. If you are thinking your way through it, that will likely create some unnecessary tension. Let yourself suck for a while.

Go at it like a kid. Have fun playing the songs.

You won't lose the relaxed feel. You will develop the attributes to 'push' when the song calls for it.
Thx for that suggestion and the players list. I think Stewart Copeland pushed the Police pretty darn hard.
 

JimmyM

Platinum Member
This is a good thread because that is the comment I get the most from other musicians when I play drums. They’ve said I don’t take charge enough and they are right. I am working on that but it’s not going to happen overnight.
 

Ruok

Silver Member
Anyone ever out there needed to learn to "lay FORWARD"? hahaha

Yes! This was my problem that I also discovered mostly from hearing recordings of myself. However there was a time during an audition that I was told that I was "dragging". What I eventually discovered was that I dragged only during certain sections when my mind would start to wander and I would lose concentration. I would go on "autopilot" and almost daydream. Once I realized this, I had to tell myself to constantly listen and immerse myself in the sound of the music and push myself a bit, since I too tend to be naturally laid back anyway.
 

rhumbagirl

Senior Member
I was curious so I looked up the speed of sound... 343 meters per second.... or 2.915 milliseconds for 1 meter of travel. I know the discussion is about the drummer's play from his or her perspective, but in a live setting I think sound travel has to be taken into consideration.

I've had bass players as close as 1 meter away from me, and as far as 2 meters. If sound delay starts to become noticeable at 5-10ms (never mind the 1.5ms that AD converters inject... see here), how does live performance work at all anyway? Are IEMs the answer to everything?

(I went to a Kenny G concert recently. I swear I could hear Bejarano's hihat chick right along with what my eyes could see. Of course if the drummer is playing to a click, then he doesn't have to listen to the rest of the band for a time reference. And Kenny G's music would fit into that genre of music with metronomic time... elevator music or smooth jazz.)

EDIT: I was approx 75 ft from the front of the stage, and approx 100 ft (30.5 meters = 90 milliseconds) from Bejarano's kit. Does this mean Bejarano was playing in front of the click, and if so, how were the other musicians affected?
 
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JimmyM

Platinum Member
I was curious so I looked up the speed of sound... 343 meters per second.... or 2.915 milliseconds for 1 meter of travel. I know the discussion is about the drummer's play from his or her perspective, but in a live setting I think sound travel has to be taken into consideration.

I've had bass players as close as 1 meter away from me, and as far as 2 meters. If sound delay starts to become noticeable at 5-10ms (never mind the 1.5ms that AD converters inject... see here), how does live performance work at all anyway? Are IEMs the answer to everything?

(I went to a Kenny G concert recently. I swear I could hear Bejarano's hihat chick right along with what my eyes could see. Of course if the drummer is playing to a click, then he doesn't have to listen to the rest of the band for a time reference. And Kenny G's music would fit into that genre of music with metronomic time... elevator music or smooth jazz.)

EDIT: I was approx 75 ft from the front of the stage, and approx 100 ft (30.5 meters = 90 milliseconds) from Bejarano's kit. Does this mean Bejarano was playing in front of the click, and if so, how were the other musicians affected?
It takes about 10 ms to even notice anything is off, and if everyone has monitors or IEM's, as long as the IEM's don't have too long a delay, it's not noticeable. We're playing music, not testing in a lab :D
 

Philaiy9

Junior Member
My guitarist friend sent me this video, which I found pretty enlightening. It seems like they're addressing your bass player problem in a jazz context.

 
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rhumbagirl

Senior Member
It takes about 10 ms to even notice anything is off, and if everyone has monitors or IEM's, as long as the IEM's don't have too long a delay, it's not noticeable. We're playing music, not testing in a lab :D
According to the referenced link (see here):

"While we can’t generally hear the effects of latency until they are around 15-30 milliseconds (ms), performers can begin to feel them at around 5-10ms. At 7ms, latency starts to mess with our ability to play or sing on top of or behind the beat. Sound starts to feel sluggish at 10ms. "

EDIT: An analog mixing board with outputs for wedge monitors is zero latency plus the latency of 1 meter for sound travel = 3ms.
A digital mixer (1.5 - 3.0ms) with wireless IEM connections (2.5 - 5.0ms) introduces 4.0 - 8.0ms.
 
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JimmyM

Platinum Member
According the referenced link (see here):

"While we can’t generally hear the effects of latency until they are around 15-30 milliseconds (ms), performers can begin to feel them at around 5-10ms. At 7ms, latency starts to mess with our ability to play or sing on top of or behind the beat. Sound starts to feel sluggish at 10ms. "
That is about right according to some of the digital wireless units I've owned.
 

ColdFusion

Active Member
I realize I am "hearing/feeling" the time late. My time is pretty good and consistent, just behind the beat.
This sounds super familiar. I was a 'deep pocket' drummer for a long time. I also thought of it as an advantage, until I didn't, lol. At least it implies a drummer who is really feeling the music. That instinct may even give you an advantage when playing hiphop or blues, or some jazz.

but I hear on recordings I need to be more on top.
Most drummers tend to rush if anything and I have to learn to play more on top . A challenge while trying to be as relaxed as possible.
I still like to lay back in the pocket for some things. But it's true, a well rounded player must recognize that many songs will require you to stick that pulse right out in front..to lean forward, while still feeling like you are "resting" in the pocket.

And if a drummer can break the habit of rushing their time when entering fills, they'll be well on their way.
 
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