I find the category "Ladies" to be quite insensitive. Can Drummerworld do a better job of giving female drummers the credit that they deserve?

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Dylan Bassett

New member
I think that the category "Ladies" is a very poor choice and likely makes some people feel less than equal. Do we have a "Gentlemen" category? Perhaps a "Female Drummers" or "Women Drummers" category could do a better job of highlighting women who play drums. Also, including more female drummers who have gone unrecognized because of gender bias over the years on the list of top drummers would also make a difference and help to begin to correct the biased past of this instrument.
 

sumdrumguy

Senior Member
As someone who mainly accesses the forum directly, I had to look around a bit to find what part of the site OP was refering to.

I am of the same mind as GruntersDad. Neither "Female" and/or "Woman/Women" seem, to me, to be better options. Often used in a derogatory fashion, they are more likely to be perceived negatively, and offend. At least, that's my perception (54 year old man).

I get the perspective of no gender - just a great drummer. That is the goal. Here, and in the bigger picture - society as a whole. However there is still a lot of work to be done in gender equality/equity.

There is value in having a category/tag for drummers identifying in the feminine. A big positive I see, it makes it easier for folks who identify as female to find role models. It also smacks down the mythology of success/a career in drumming being "a man's game", etc.
 
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Single-ing out or calling attention to a particular section of people is like this with any category where historically or currently in that category that a typical gender, race, religion, nationality or what have you is not typically the norm whether it be due to past biases or for many other reasons. I see no problem with lady as grunt says. And as far as I can see whether it be lady, woman, female or other “acceptable “ term ,.... it calls attention to the existence of that term of drummer which is only a good thing . The music and particularly for a while now , the drum/percussion world both private and organization wise, has promoted and called attention to the female gender to foster the idea that it’s NOT a male only endeavor, hobby or occupation and has given every opportunity and championed the opposite sex in a what WAS mostly a male dominated field . This can be seen in endorsements , showcases , clinics and many other ways that are more and more FEATURING female drummers/percussionists. It’s a good thing and will lead to more and more women
( “ladies”) entering the field . One day you’ll probably just hear ,..... “she’s a great drummer” and it won’t be categorized by gender . But until then , and until there’s just as many or almost as many women as men in the field you’ll probably see them categorized to a degree or degrees , but that is how any minority group within a group becomes more normalized if you will , .... by calling attention to it and promoting it . Which is being done ! And as the husband and father of 4 females I see it happening in everything that was traditionally male . But I see the point , it should just be ..... so and so is a great drummer , or so and so is a great this or that and maybe not categorized as female , woman or lady , but it it will get to that point . You see this the opposite way ( albeit not often) with labels,..... ex : “male nurse” and some other female dominated professions/fields where men are not the norm.
 

prokofi5

Junior Member
I asked my wife what she thought and her first question was whether they were only represented in the 'ladies' category or it they were included under the other genre labels. They are so she didn't have a problem with it especially since a young drummer might be really motivated by seeing the talent in the category. "The Ladies" may not be a perfect label, but we couldn't think of anything better that would please everyone.
 

GetAgrippa

Platinum Member
It’s a word it only has power you give it. People say all sorts of stuff but it’s what people do that counts. It’s an odd habit everyone has to sometimes “”qualify” something but I don’t think it means anything . Unless if afterward attach something negative to the qualifier. So I can say “I have a Lady doctor. But if I say “ I have a Lady doctor and for a girl she seems ok” - wow is there almost a compliment - hell no. See it’s different LoL.

Actually that’s pretty close to what my eldest brother said to my wife after being a physician a few years. She got all kinds of grief from male peers because top in her class in Med school . Some males are like a snowflake a little sun shines on them and they melt. Our niece followed her aunt and is also a young physician and I know both of them wouldn’t care if in respectful terms. All thst passive-aggressive joking crap don’t fly. How you say and inflect a word can be the difference between love snd hate. You have to mind people can take ioffense at about anything by perception also- but it doesn’t mean any intent.
 
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KamaK

Platinum Member
I'm not sure I find the term Ladies, any different as far as being equal, than Female or Women/Woman. I don't think any woman would object to being called Lady. But hey, I'm old. What do I know.
The term Lady implies a woman of social privilege. The term is not well understood in cultures that do not have SP, or are >3 generations past its deprecation, because nobody has ever known a "Lady" outside of Disney movies and "Gone With The Wind".

Personally, I'm over the titles that humans use to distinguish themselves from one another. It's a pointless exercise with no tangible benefit.

Signed, Lord KamaK Esquire the 3rd MD
 

Poleaux

Active member
Damn. I was so happy when I found this Forum. It seemed like a great place to discuss drums with very cool and knowledgeable folks and not be hassled by mindless political correctness. But alas, I now see there is apparently no escape from that.
 

GruntersDad

Administrator - Mayor
Staff member
The term Lady implies a woman of social privilege. The term is not well understood in cultures that do not have SP, or are >3 generations past its deprecation, because nobody has ever known a "Lady" outside of Disney movies and "Gone With The Wind".

Personally, I'm over the titles that humans use to distinguish themselves from one another. It's a pointless exercise with no tangible benefit.

Signed, Lord KamaK Esquire the 3rd MD
Our President is married to the First Lady, not first woman!!!!
 

J-W

Well-known member
Well, I think being offended for a group you're not a part of can be offensive to that group. By speaking for them without their asking it of you, you're essentially saying they aren't capable of it themselves. Do you think their voice or opinion doesn't matter, or that yours is more important? Do you think they are they not strong enough willed to defend themselves? Did they require a white knight to come along and save them? Do you think they're that weak?

Yes, just call them DRUMMERS. :)

Nope. Nope. How about "Musicians". The term "drummer" is offensive since stereotypes tend to paint drummers as the idiot of the band. Besides, there is a musician bias against drummers as they are usually underrepresented. They are typically outnumbered by guitarists at a minimum of 2 to 1. There are far too few all-drummer rock bands out there.
So, when you say "He's a good drummer", does that imply he's not a good musician? He's only good at the drums? He's good, you know, for a drummer? Seems a bit offensive, doesn't it? If the victim mentality and cancel culture is that alive and well and the world needs yet another SJW :rolleyes:, then I think this forum name should be changed to "Musiciansworld".

Ok, I'm just going to go bash on my drums like the caveman that I am now................
 

GetAgrippa

Platinum Member
I think it better to be inclusive of all because say Baby boomers raised to open doors for women, Yes Ma’am , so on ,as Kamak laments there are cultural differences but also generational differences . It’s done for respect. Which we don’t want to discriminate against age or cultural difference so I’d say through diversity a population can change by itself. So let it go flow and it will change like a river anyways. Sonorfan is 80 and I bet he can tell you a bunch of terms that have changed meaning. Even me when my 3 daughters come home telling what fun they had playing Cornhole with their dates. After I woke up they explained LOL. It’s like a river don’t swim against (you’ll drown) it go with the flow.
 
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C.M. Jones

Well-known member
I'm having trouble processing why someone would voluntarily join a forum only to decry its standards. The New Member's very first post calls for Drummerworld to revise its word choice on the grounds of personal sensitivity. It's like buying a new house and complaining about the neighborhood before you've met your neighbors. I scratch my head a little more each day.
 
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GetAgrippa

Platinum Member
I've been here over a decade I've never seen a "Ladies" section-is it a thread? Anyways diversity Is always good-even if you don't like some.of it. Like the Irish Potato famine I think was the Irish grew one particular variety, rather than diverse, and the blight impacted their crops more-as I recollect. We don't want a blight on the DW forum and there is nothing in rules about it LOL. I don't have a problem discussing it-wish more "ladies" would respond LOL.

I know growing up lots people either love or just hate a physician-which my Dad was one. I was alway defensive of his occupation but now I'm pretty critical of all that from years at a medical college and research.
True story-I had one odd experience of a fellow professor at a smaller college talking with me. I was telling him how my Dad was a physician in the conversation. Abruptly He said "You sound like a doctor". I didn't know what he meant since technically we were both doctors. But he went on "A doctor killed my Mother". So I sound like a "medical doctor" I guess and somehow I'm responsible for his mom's death? Damn. I said "Not all doctors are good-I have an Uncle who is also a physician and he went to prison. I'm sorry for your loss". And I walked away. What else can you say. Freaky. A generational curse I guess. I offended him being the son of a physician and he offended me being a freaking lunatic. You know back in early 70s with my long beautiful Hair I'd have truck drivers and gas attendants call me "A Girl" quite often. I took offense to that????
 
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Odd-Arne Oseberg

Platinum Member
Well, if you must then, DRUMMERETTES. :)

What do you call a drummerette that breaks up with her boyfriend?
 

CommanderRoss

Silver Member
As someone who mainly accesses the forum directly, I had to look around a bit to find what part of the site OP was referring to.
I am of the same mind as GruntersDad. Neither "Female" and/or "Woman/Women" seem, to me, to be better options. Often used in a derogatory fashion, they are more likely to be perceived negatively, and offend. At least, that's my perception (54 year old man).

Exactly!

I'm having trouble processing why someone would voluntarily join a forum only to decry its standards. The New Member's very first post calls for Drummerworld to revise its word choice on the grounds of personal sensitivity. It's like buying a new house and complaining about the neighborhood before you've met your neighbors. I scratch my head a little more each day.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought this.

OP needs to be here for a bit, see that we're not (and won't be) political and just talk drums.
Who's behind them is who's behind them. The label isn't necessary.
 
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