how common is it to crash the "ride" cymbal?

Ransan

Senior Member
I recently switched to Zildjian's A Avedis series (Zildjian's "vintage" line) and am playing a 21" crash-ride. It has a very thin profile, the thinnest I've ever owned in a ride. I'm liking it a lot more than many of the ping-oriented rides I've played over the years. The bell still has cut, and the bow is articulate, but its woody, mellow voice is wonderfully musical.
Word glad to hear your enjoying the new suit!

I have a 22” AA Crash/Ride at 3,040 grams, not a thin profile - it’s more like a heavy crash pretty much in the ride weight class, lovely open classic sound.

I understand your using Avedis but just curious. How much does your 21” CR weigh?
 

NouveauCliche

Senior Member
how common is it to crash the "ride" cymbal?

does it give a much deeper sound than what a large crash would give?

any particular drummers who crash the "ride" cymbal?

thanks
It's 100% illegal and prosecutable in the US.

You can do it if you'd like - but you're taking your own freedom in your hands.

Kidding aside - I technically don't even own a crash right now - all of my cymbals are rides and they get crashed quite a bit.

It's like anything else - the labels don't matter - just the sonic qualities that you're after.
 

C.M. Jones

Well-known member
Word glad to hear your enjoying the new suit!

I have a 22” AA Crash/Ride at 3,040 grams, not a thin profile - it’s more like a heavy crash pretty much in the ride weight class, lovely open classic sound.

I understand your using Avedis but just curious. How much does your 21” CR weigh?
My Avedis 21" weighs about 2100 grams. It has a ton of flex. You can see the bow waving when you ride it. Its feel is rather cushiony. Tonally, it's pretty low, which is exactly what I wanted.
 

C.M. Jones

Well-known member
It's 100% illegal and prosecutable in the US.

You can do it if you'd like - but you're taking your own freedom in your hands.

Kidding aside - I technically don't even own a crash right now - all of my cymbals are rides and they get crashed quite a bit.

It's like anything else - the labels don't matter - just the sonic qualities that you're after.
I don't think I'll ever go back to small crashes. When I ordered my new Avedis setup a few weeks ago, I went with 18" and 19", but I ended up liking the 19" so much that I just got another one. Now I'm playing two 19"s and a 21". The 18" is on reserve as a backup. It seems tiny. :)
 

Ransan

Senior Member
My Avedis 21" weighs about 2100 grams. It has a ton of flex. You can see the bow waving when you ride it. Its feel is rather cushiony. Tonally, it's pretty low, which is exactly what I wanted.
That is a thin or light profile weight, my 21” HH vintage Ride is at 2,378 grams and of course low pitched due to density.
My 20” AAXploison crash is 1,966 grams considered medium thin profile by Sabian.

I don't think I'll ever go back to small crashes. When I ordered my new Avedis setup a few weeks ago, I went with 18" and 19", but I ended up liking the 19" so much that I just got another one. Now I'm playing two 19"s and a 21". The 18" is on reserve as a backup. It seems tiny. :)
Yep I currently am enjoying large pies notwithstanding the hats I love my 13” fusion hats. I’ve been using that model around 20 years or so since my first pair of pro level cymbals.

Right now on my kit I have
22” crash/ride medium heavy for bright pitch
21” vintage ride all around good ride with crashing
20” AAXplosion Crash large crash, momentous wash, and oversized bell for ping and riding
 

C.M. Jones

Well-known member
Yep I currently am enjoying large pies notwithstanding the hats I love my 13” fusion hats.
I played 13" hats briefly in the "90s. Their articulation was nice. My norm has always been 14", but my new 15"s are working out really well. I like their increased warmth and washier presence. They're pretty thin too, like the rest of the Avedis line.
 
Last edited:

IBitePrettyHard

Senior Member
Here's an example of a drummer using the ride for a powerful wash sound. He's using a Heartbeat Epic Ride 24" and completely bashing the crap out of it, haha.

Watch the first minute of this video...
 

WhoIsTony?

Member
a cymbal is a cymbal

the distinction between what to use them for is a marketing ploy that started in probably the 70s designed to sell you more than you need

a cymbal that does one thing is a shit cymbal

you should be able to do everything you need to do on any cymbal that is not a specialty device like a splash or strictly effect pieces
 
Last edited:

Justinhub2003

Well-known member
Growing up, I never really crashed the ride. But that was mostly because my old rides just sounded harsh and loud when crashed.


Then I got a Paiste Dark Energy MKI ride and I love it so much that I could use it as a crash.

Now almost all my Meinl rides are really crashy.


I don’t over do it though
 

Ransan

Senior Member
a cymbal is a cymbal

the distinction between what to use them for is a marketing ploy that started in probably the 70s designed to sell you more than you need

a cymbal that does one thing is a shit cymbal

you should be able to do everything you need to do on any cymbal that is not a specialty device like a splash or strictly effect pieces
That’s exactly why I go by weight in grams if noted, then I look at thickness profile.
For me, the profiles give me somewhat of an idea of density. I then look for processing technique such as bright or traditional, machine or hand hammering, lathing or rawness, etc..

Though I stay within the brand lines I want, I don’t really chase after the cymbal titles in other words.
 

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
For me, the profiles give me somewhat of an idea of density.
Density of a material does not change with size or thickness. Cut the cymbal into 1000 pieces and those pieces still have the same density as the whole cymbal.

Why not just hit it with a stick and see if you like the sound?
 

Ransan

Senior Member
Density of a material does not change with size or thickness. Cut the cymbal into 1000 pieces and those pieces still have the same density as the whole cymbal.

Why not just hit it with a stick and see if you like the sound?
Correct that’s why diameter and profile are equally important MIP.

Im just stating my view on the subject. As a percussionist and a salesman, I’ve did nothing but read the literature(s) at the music store I worked, as I had to research, from then, I’ve continued to educate myself.

Sometimes other than Youtube or artist profiles, sounds in person are not applicable. I understand by definition a fast crash will be thin, low pitched, responsive, and short decay all properties of a low density cymbal. A medium crash will be by definition medium to profile, not responsive to opening, but projects once it’s open and sustained, a rock crash will be medium- heavy bright as expected and further down the road of the latter qualities.

The added physical processes add nuance. Brilliant finish gives additional brightness over traditional finish. Machine hammering gives darkness, and decay consistency as opposed to the same values but manual complexities of hand hammering. Lathing gives tonality and life, as opposed too the dry natural sounding raw or unlathed cymbal.

Then we can talk bell sizes, bow tapers, edge flanges, and now holes to dissipate sound adding decay complexities, etc...

I guess a general guide line is; low profile or less dense cymbals in relation to their size, will be low pitched, following medium with, medium- heavy which is higher pitched, and so forth.

Back in the day, catalogues just described them in diameter and density profiles as I’m describing them above, paper thin, thin, medium- thin, medium, medium- heavy, heavy, extra heavy, no need for cymbal titles, just understand cymbal nomenclature such as b8, b20, technique or process involves, and attributes such as grams will tell you what you want, if not in grams the profiles give you their an idea of their defining character.
 
Last edited:

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
I guess a general guide line is; low profile or less dense cymbals in relation to their size, will be low pitched, following medium with, medium- heavy which is higher pitched, and so forth.
This is not correct. Density is how packed the molecular structure of something is. It's an atomic level measurement. Any bronze, regardless of age or size or shape, will have a density that falls somewhere between 7400 - 8900 g/m^3 if it has a tin content of 7-14%. Its too early for me to do the math on B20. Regardless, that does not change for diameter, thickness, rolled, cast, stamped, lathed, raw, hammed, coated, etc. A materials density is only affected by introducing other materials to the mixture.

Look at it like this, you fill a glass, a waterbed, and a swimming pool from the same water source. They all have the same density. That will never change. To make it change, you would have to boil it, freeze it, or add salt.

Sorry, I'm not trying to lecture you. I was thrown by the density statement. Density and weight are not the same thing. That's more what you are referring to I think.
 

wraub

Well-known member
I do this with my ride, and find that with a little more effort the roar is a useful thing, too. I like the way it can jump out and then linger over everything.

edit- 60s Zildjian, 22", 3110 gm.

Strike point on heavy rides is important. Not like a medium or rock crash that will build wash on the edge.

When I want to crash on my AAX Metal ride, I’ll lay a strike with most of my stick across the top profile of the cymbal, more on bow than shoulder and bell.

The sound then is a bright ping and very punchy crash that sounds completely different.
 
Last edited:

wraub

Well-known member
He is absolutely beating up that ride cymbal, and it sounds pretty good.

However, I couldn't watch the full minute, sorry.

Here's an example of a drummer using the ride for a powerful wash sound. He's using a Heartbeat Epic Ride 24" and completely bashing the crap out of it, haha.

Watch the first minute of this video...
 

Ransan

Senior Member
This is not correct. Density is how packed the molecular structure of something is. It's an atomic level measurement. Any bronze, regardless of age or size or shape, will have a density that falls somewhere between 7400 - 8900 g/m^3 if it has a tin content of 7-14%. Its too early for me to do the math on B20. Regardless, that does not change for diameter, thickness, rolled, cast, stamped, lathed, raw, hammed, coated, etc. A materials density is only affected by introducing other materials to the mixture.

Look at it like this, you fill a glass, a waterbed, and a swimming pool from the same water source. They all have the same density. That will never change. To make it change, you would have to boil it, freeze it, or add salt.

Sorry, I'm not trying to lecture you. I was thrown by the density statement. Density and weight are not the same thing. That's more what you are referring to I think.
MIP no worries. I get what your saying, I might have loosely interchanged my apologies. Please no math it is too early and I’m an accountant

My 21” ride is not the same density as my 22” crash/ride. The crash/ride is almost 800 grams more in just an inch more of pie. Density includes mass, where they are also factoring volume.

Would the slipper and the water get to hold their respectable sizes in water as density includes volume. Yes the water is the liquid and consistency in question, that’s the only thing though.
A slipper is not quite up to a waterbeds volume. Would all humans set out with the same density?

Though I’m certain, cymbal composition will have couple of rounds of density measurements as they have to mix or blend alloys for volume. I would think this becomes the sound base of the cymbal, by the thickness set out for smiths to work with.

I say low density I am referring to cymbal thickness, sorry for the confusion. To me this is directly translating that less grams would be in a less heavy or thick cymbal. There is density at play as well, make no mistake.

Also if your giving density the surface tension qualities of how tightly packed molecules are, wouldn’t the hammering loosen said molecules altering the areas density for that square inch.

However cymbals undergo vigorous physical and chemical properties during the process to alter weight and density, that’s why it’s a big deal for two cymbals of equal to sound the same. Though we have and had some great cymbals, it’s still trial and error and not quite perfected.
 

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
MIP no worries. I get what your saying, I might have loosely interchanged my apologies. Please no math it is too early and I’m an accountant

My 21” ride is not the same density as my 22” crash/ride. The crash/ride is almost 800 grams more in just an inch more of pie. Density includes mass, where they are also factoring volume.

Would the slipper and the water get to hold their respectable sizes in water as density includes volume. Yes the water is the liquid and consistency in question, that’s the only thing though.
A slipper is not quite up to a waterbeds volume. Would all humans set out with the same density?

Though I’m certain, cymbal composition will have couple of rounds of density measurements as they have to mix or blend alloys for volume. I would think this becomes the sound base of the cymbal, by the thickness set out for smiths to work with.

I say low density I am referring to cymbal thickness, sorry for the confusion. To me this is directly translating that less grams would be in a less heavy or thick cymbal. There is density at play as well, make no mistake.

Also if your giving density the surface tension qualities of how tightly packed molecules are, wouldn’t the hammering loosen said molecules altering the areas density for that square inch.

However cymbals undergo vigorous physical and chemical properties during the process to alter weight and density, that’s why it’s a big deal for two cymbals of equal to sound the same. Though we have and had some great cymbals, it’s still trial and error and not quite perfected.
It's cool, I see what you are saying.

As for working the material, I dont know. I do know you can change the alignment of the molecular structure. Whether or not that alters density, that would require a metallurgist to answer.
 

GetAgrippa

Platinum Member
I know hot-forged metal-like traditional cymbal makers-are stronger than cast metals. I'm pretty sure the heat and hammering alter the crystalline structure but I don't think it changes the density of the metal (that stays constant I would think).
 
Top