Help with stick control again

Auspicious

Well-known member
I am moving forward with my stick control journey, I played the whole book at 70bpm and perhaps most of it played wrong but it doesn't matter too much because, it was difficult more then enough and my hands improved quite a bit while practicing against jazz music, which was one major goal.

Today I have these bars, 3 different exercises but I only can play 1 thing for the 3 of them.. Obviously, they MUST sound differently.
u6tJGkC.png


My question is the following: If I play 1 of the 3 exercises, which one am I playing?


Second part, I ask publicly if a charitable soul could record a video, playing the 3 different exercises, A,B,C, so I can see and hear the difference between them. Explaining it to me with text.. it's not going to happen, I will not understand like previously. :(
 

toddbishop

Platinum Member
Sure you'll understand it. You're playing C, and the basic rhythmic outline is correct. The only difference between the exercises is the kind of stroke you play on the roll portion.

A = double strokes
B = multiple bounce strokes
C = multiple bounce strokes, but the last note of the quintuplet portion is a tap, as you're doing here

So if you buzz that last note you'll be playing B, and if you then play double strokes instead of multiple bounce strokes, you'll have A.
 

Push pull stroke

Platinum Member
Sure you'll understand it. You're playing C, and the basic rhythmic outline is correct. The only difference between the exercises is the kind of stroke you play on the roll portion.

A = double strokes
B = multiple bounce strokes
C = multiple bounce strokes, but the last note of the quintuplet portion is a tap, as you're doing here

So if you buzz that last note you'll be playing B, and if you then play double strokes instead of multiple bounce strokes, you'll have A.

As far as I can tell, B is definitely doubles, not buzzes. And same with C, although I admit I’m not up on performance practice from that period.
 

Mighty_Joker

Silver Member
You know I was doing some work with Stick Control today and the notation is a nightmare. He talks about open and closed rolls, specifying closed rolls as multiple bounce (but not scratch) rolls, but does not differentiate between them in the notation.

There are also bizarre footnotes talking about inaccurate rhythmic notation for some of the roll exercises. Sure the book is a classic, and invaluable if worked with regularly, but I wish somebody would bring it up to date with contemporary notation and accurate rhythmic figures.
 

Auspicious

Well-known member
Thanks Todd and for pointing out the tap ending of the roll.

***

At higher speed.. even 70 such as my example, the doubles are so fast, they sound like a bzzes.

I am asking this.. is it possible that poor doubles at faster speed could sound like buzzes? Because I was trying to play A in fact, doubles.. and apparently they sound more like buzzes then doubles.

The difference between the 2 at higher speed is not obvious.. how much stroke is a buzz exactly?
 

Mighty_Joker

Silver Member
Thanks Todd and for pointing out the tap ending of the roll.

***

At higher speed.. even 70 such as my example, the doubles are so fast, they sound like a bzzes.

I am asking this.. is it possible that poor doubles at faster speed could sound like buzzes? Because I was trying to play A in fact, doubles.. and apparently they sound more like buzzes then doubles.

The difference between the 2 at higher speed is not obvious.. how much stroke is a buzz exactly?
If your doubles sound like buzzes at 70bpm you’re doubling the intended rate.
 

Sebenza

Member
As far as I can tell, B is definitely doubles, not buzzes. And same with C, although I admit I’m not up on performance practice from that period.
That confuses me...wouldn't that make B exactly the same as A, just notated differently? I would assume buzzes in B and C myself
 

Auspicious

Well-known member
I think I see what's happening here, at 70 BPM my hands barely can play the 10 doubles.. (A)

In this video at 70 bpm, I tried to play doubles but the muscles in my hands are tense and the video shows my stiff hands too. But I think this time, I really play isolated doubles and not buzzes.

Also, I am unable to play these doubles in the context, my hands are not precise enough to do it yet, perhaps the reason why the strokes sounded like buzzes in the first video.. I think it's easier to play buzzes then fast doubles.

 

Sebenza

Member
I think you’re right, it’s been almost 30 years since I played from method books from that time frame.
How are closed/buzz rolls notated these days?
I've never looked into classical snare stuff and have only worked with books from that period like both Stone's and Wilcoxons classics, except for the Morello books but those are specific enough in their description of what to play where.
 

Auspicious

Well-known member
The book stick control even if it's old, helps my hands a lot to gain control and speed.

Currently I don't really have an idea of the difference between old style and new style snare.
 

MrPockets

Gold Member
Currently I don't really have an idea of the difference between old style and new style snare.

I would say I've come across this notation in modern scores. It isn't really an issue.

A is double strokes

B is close roll with tap

C is closed roll without a tap

As far as I can tell, B is definitely doubles, not buzzes. And same with C, although I admit I’m not up on performance practice from that period.

I'd say B and C are quite obviously closed rolls.
 
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toddbishop

Platinum Member
You know I was doing some work with Stick Control today and the notation is a nightmare. He talks about open and closed rolls, specifying closed rolls as multiple bounce (but not scratch) rolls, but does not differentiate between them in the notation.

There are also bizarre footnotes talking about inaccurate rhythmic notation for some of the roll exercises. Sure the book is a classic, and invaluable if worked with regularly, but I wish somebody would bring it up to date with contemporary notation and accurate rhythmic figures.
It's pretty straightforward. Open rolls are notated as a rhythm, usually 16th notes or 16th note tuplets, with the doubles written out-- RRLLRRLL.

He writes closed rolls with conventional roll notation-- a larger note value with the three slashes. The sticking indicates multiple bounce strokes— or multiple bounce strokes and an ending tap before the 1. Where there is a tie, they release on 1, where there is no tie, they release on the last roll stroke before the 1.

This is all illustrated on pp. 11-12:

1622326711522.png

is the same as

1622326745954.png
...except one is four double strokes and a tap, the other is four multiple bounce strokes and a tap.

Same here:

1622326816296.png
is the same as

1622326854595.png

...except one is three double strokes and a tap, the other is three multiple bounce strokes and a tap.

Re: that footnote on p. 25:

1622327122732.png
He's just explaining why he used the tuplet notation-- it's easier to read 16th note tuplets than a lot of dotted 32nd notes-- which is the correct non-tuplet notation for a one beat long (in 6/8 that's a dotted quarter note) 9 stroke open roll.

1622327472227.png

They're both precise and accurate ways of writing that rhythm.
 

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Push pull stroke

Platinum Member
How are closed/buzz rolls notated these days?
I've never looked into classical snare stuff and have only worked with books from that period like both Stone's and Wilcoxons classics, except for the Morello books but those are specific enough in their description of what to play where.

There are 3 main ways, the 3 dashes through the stem, a wavy horizontal line above the note, or a Z through the stem.
 
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