Has anyone ever felt like they need to hold onto the stick far up or all the way back?

I watched the hand and feet deconstruction videos. Is that you in the video? Seems fishy that Counterspiral is brand new, deals with the exact same things you ask if anyone does in the other thread, and now you are here showing it off.

If it's not you, I apologize. If it is you, coming to a forum and fishing for "customers" is a horrible way to sell anything.

BTW, the stick is supposed to rotate freely in the hand as you play. Keeping a solid grip on it to do the spirals can potentially damage the hands through impact and vibration.
It is me, but I'm not sure what you mean by "customers" - everything on the site is free and there are no ads. As I understand it, a free exchange of information is a core function of forums. My other thread is an attempt to learn what else is out there that people find useful. Not sure what's fishy about that.

As for your substantive criticism, that has not been my experience. I've found that gripping the stick firmly and using spin adds another dimension to playing and provides much more control than a freely rotating stick. And the exercises I've detailed on my website did more to develop my hands (and feet!) than anything else I've encountered, though I am still working my way through some of the suggestions people kindly made on the other thread.

I do agree that this training (and any other training) should be approached with caution. If you simply change your grip to the one I suggest and start whaling away on your kit, you very well may do some damage. But if you take it slow and use these exercises to develop your hands, focusing mainly on drum pad work, then it shouldn't be a problem. Why don't you give it a try?
 

Sebenza

Member
It is me, but I'm not sure what you mean by "customers" - everything on the site is free and there are no ads. As I understand it, a free exchange of information is a core function of forums. My other thread is an attempt to learn what else is out there that people find useful. Not sure what's fishy about that.

As for your substantive criticism, that has not been my experience. I've found that gripping the stick firmly and using spin adds another dimension to playing and provides much more control than a freely rotating stick. And the exercises I've detailed on my website did more to develop my hands (and feet!) than anything else I've encountered, though I am still working my way through some of the suggestions people kindly made on the other thread.

I do agree that this training (and any other training) should be approached with caution. If you simply change your grip to the one I suggest and start whaling away on your kit, you very well may do some damage. But if you take it slow and use these exercises to develop your hands, focusing mainly on drum pad work, then it shouldn't be a problem. Why don't you give it a try?
I'd like to see a real world example (as in 'musical') of what kind of benefits this "technique" can provide. You state that your hands developed a lot more from your invention, but in that one vid where you do hold a stick, I see nothing noteworthy. What's it supposed to do for you?

Don't get me wrong, I'm open minded, but I'm also a drummer...I wouldn't put time in something esoteric that provides no actual musical benefits.
 

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
It is me, but I'm not sure what you mean by "customers" - everything on the site is free and there are no ads. As I understand it, a free exchange of information is a core function of forums. My other thread is an attempt to learn what else is out there that people find useful. Not sure what's fishy about that.
By coming here and starting a thread about "does anybody do this", getting responses that arent what you are searching for, then posting a link to your own stuff without disclosing that it is YOUR STUFF is deceptively fishing. If you had just come here and said "I'm so and so, I've developed this program and would like feedback" it would be different. You are trying to bait us into it. We are drummers, not idiots.

By the way, I'm sceptical of anything new. You are trying to convince people who use tried and true techniques and have played the instrument for decades that there is something better. Good luck with that. Again, if you had just been up front with it perhaps you would get different responses.

So what are your qualifications? Physical therapist, kinesiologist, sports medicine? You might wanna disclose that also if you wanna be taken seriously.
 
I'd like to see a real world example (as in 'musical') of what kind of benefits this "technique" can provide. You state that your hands developed a lot more from your invention, but in that one vid where you do hold a stick, I see nothing noteworthy. What's it supposed to do for you?

Don't get me wrong, I'm open minded, but I'm also a drummer...I wouldn't put time in something esoteric that provides no actual musical benefits.
With respect to the hands, for drumming, I would say the three main benefits are efficiency, control, and versatility.

Efficiency improvements result from not having to fight gravity with each stroke. When the hand is developed and used as a dynamic spiral, downward spin applied at the thumb produces a downstroke and passively rotates the pinky up. A counterstroke can then by produced by applying down-spin at the pinky, which passively rotates the thumb up. In all cases the stroke results from down-spin. While this may not sound like a big deal, the resulting improvements in efficiency are tremendous. Efficiency is unfortunately not very visually compelling, because it generally means minimizing movement. The video on the website you viewed is somewhat dated at this point. I'll try to shoot another one this week showing a sustained drum roll on a practice pad with no movement of the wrists - just back and forth rotation of the stick. Not sure if that will be compelling to folks. If anyone has another idea for how to show efficiency - or some accepted drum test, please let me know.

Control is another big one. Because I can produce continuous strokes with back and forth rotation of the stick, I don't have to rely on controlling the rebound. All active movement with the fingers. This allows for much more dynamic control.

Versatility is related. I can use spin to add a dimension to stroke selection. For evolutionary reasons (hands used to be feet, and the feet rotate inwards towards the big toe with each step), the down-spin stroke with the thumb has more power. Instead of using fingers for base stroke and wrists or arms for emphasis stroke, I can use the fingers for everything. Down-spin at the pinky for base stroke, and down-spin at the thumb for emphasis stroke.
 
I'd like to see a real world example (as in 'musical') of what kind of benefits this "technique" can provide. You state that your hands developed a lot more from your invention, but in that one vid where you do hold a stick, I see nothing noteworthy. What's it supposed to do for you?

Don't get me wrong, I'm open minded, but I'm also a drummer...I wouldn't put time in something esoteric that provides no actual musical benefits.
Here's a short clip showing the technique in action. The point of this short clip is that you can produce clear controlled strokes with a tight grip on the drumstick and no movement of the wrists, using only the spiral motion of the hands. These exercises are intended as a development technique. In actual playing, this base form would add a dimension to whatever you do now.

 

sumdrumguy

Senior Member
Here's a short clip showing the technique in action. The point of this short clip is that you can produce clear controlled strokes with a tight grip on the drumstick and no movement of the wrists, using only the spiral motion of the hands. These exercises are intended as a development technique. In actual playing, this base form would add a dimension to whatever you do now.
The human body is amazing. Overtime it adapts to repeated patterns of behavior. Even the most awkward movements, repeated daily for 6-8 weeks, will begin to feel familiar/easier to perform. Add confirmation bias, and results can be perceived to be greater than they truly are.

I can stand on one leg, and turn a door knob with my barefoot. I can also do it using my forearms - look ma, no hands! Not the most efficient ways to open a door.


Your video does demonstrate the use of spiral motion in the hands to move a drumstick. However I don't see anything in your videos to date of benefit to playing drums. In this pad video, I see an inefficient approach to producing a very choppy, and sloppy roll.

With more dedicated practice, you may clean it up. Given the biomechanical restrictions imposed by the technique, I predict the potential for improvement is limited.
 
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Odd-Arne Oseberg

Platinum Member
I don't really think much about these things anymore.

I choke up on the stick for certain low volume ride stuff. That's about it, I think.
 

toddbishop

Platinum Member
It drifts around. Sometimes I'll be way up in the middle of the stick, sometimes way at the back. In playing drumset. I'm not doing it on purpose, it just happens.
 

MrPockets

Gold Member
Here's a short clip showing the technique in action. The point of this short clip is that you can produce clear controlled strokes with a tight grip on the drumstick and no movement of the wrists, using only the spiral motion of the hands. These exercises are intended as a development technique. In actual playing, this base form would add a dimension to whatever you do now.


So the only practical application is closed rolls at pianissimo?
 
So the only practical application is closed rolls at pianissimo?
Not at all. Again this video demonstrates a development exercise for isolating spiral motion, not drumming IRL. But learning to isolate this mechanism adds a dimension to your drum playing. You have full control of medial and lateral rotation of the stick, so you can use lateral (pinky) spin strokes for ghost notes and medial (thumb) spin strokes for accent strokes, all without engaging the wrists. For example, you can recreate Art Blakey's shuffle on Moanin' with a ghost lateral spin quickly followed by an accented medial spin, all without ever lifting a wrist. Once you add the wrists back in, you have that much more control and versatility.

And the efficiency advantages can help with endurance, if that's an issue for anyone. Once you have the grip and orientation right, the alternating strokes with the thumb and pinky are both down strokes, so you aren't fighting gravity with each stroke like wrist-based strokes.
 

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
And the efficiency advantages can help with endurance, if that's an issue for anyone. Once you have the grip and orientation right, the alternating strokes with the thumb and pinky are both down strokes, so you aren't fighting gravity with each stroke like wrist-based strokes.
Are you not familiar with utilizing the fulcrum? There is a whole genre of folks who play at blistering speeds for extended periods of time using full strokes. Is called metal. No spiraling the stick there. Not much wrist either, mostly fingers.

You arent really convincing anyone. Do some full strokes at speed with this spiral and come back with it.
 

Old PIT Guy

Well-known member
Tends to move around for me. I usually start with good intentions but wind up having to choke-up periodically because the grip has moved towards the butt end. There's some sort of attitude at work that likes the feel of more stick out in front of the hand. Not sure what it is, but when I start making drum faces I notice I'm almost out of stick.
 

MrPockets

Gold Member
Not at all. Again this video demonstrates a development exercise for isolating spiral motion, not drumming IRL. But learning to isolate this mechanism adds a dimension to your drum playing. You have full control of medial and lateral rotation of the stick, so you can use lateral (pinky) spin strokes for ghost notes and medial (thumb) spin strokes for accent strokes, all without engaging the wrists. For example, you can recreate Art Blakey's shuffle on Moanin' with a ghost lateral spin quickly followed by an accented medial spin, all without ever lifting a wrist. Once you add the wrists back in, you have that much more control and versatility.

And the efficiency advantages can help with endurance, if that's an issue for anyone. Once you have the grip and orientation right, the alternating strokes with the thumb and pinky are both down strokes, so you aren't fighting gravity with each stroke like wrist-based strokes.
So let's see a video of you doing Art Blakey's shuffle.
 
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The human body is amazing. Overtime it adapts to repeated patterns of behavior. Even the most awkward movements, repeated daily for 6-8 weeks, will begin to feel familiar/easier to perform. Add confirmation bias, and results can be perceived to be greater than they truly are.

I can stand on one leg, and turn a door knob with my barefoot. I can also do it using my forearms - look ma, no hands! Not the most efficient ways to open a door.


Your video does demonstrate the use of spiral motion in the hands to move a drumstick. However I don't see anything in your videos to date of benefit to playing drums. In this pad video, I see an inefficient approach to producing a very choppy, and sloppy roll.

With more dedicated practice, you may clean it up. Given the biomechanical restrictions imposed by the technique, I predict the potential for improvement is limited.
Your points are all generally valid, but not relevant here. I am developing a technique based on what I believe is a genuine biomechanics breakthrough. I spell out the theory in some detail here and I'm happy to try and defend any specific argument you care to make.

The technique is intended as development training, and in my experience imposing biomechanical restrictions is a great way to accelerate development. You would likely loosen the restrictions during performance.
 
So let's see a video of you doing Art Blakey's shuffle.
I want to be clear: I am not claiming to be as good as Art Blakey. I'm not even claiming to be good. But I do think the shuffle is a good demonstration of the technique, so let me see what I can come up with
 
Are you not familiar with utilizing the fulcrum? There is a whole genre of folks who play at blistering speeds for extended periods of time using full strokes. Is called metal. No spiraling the stick there. Not much wrist either, mostly fingers.

You arent really convincing anyone. Do some full strokes at speed with this spiral and come back with it.
Send me some links to what you would consider impressive and I'll work on recreating it with my technique. It may take some time, but it's useful to have benchmarks
 

pbm2112

Senior Member
I used to play at the back of the stick with quite a firm grip, but after a nasty bout of RSI from a computer-bound job, I relearned my technique to minimise tension in the hand. This lead to using that hand in a way a lot of people do I'd imagine; I find that the stick stays in the same place in my hand, but the fulcrum changes effectively meaning that you are holding the stick in different places. So for loud stuff the fulcrum is at the back of the relaxed hand so I'm holding the stick about an inch from the end, most of the time the fulcrum is in the middle of the hand (around where the Vic Firth model number is) and for quiet stuff it's at the front of the hand (around the Vic Firth flag).


I think a challenge with this technique is that any musician has a finite time in which to practice and as there is so much to work on, you have to choose something that you think is going to give you the biggest reward for the time investment. I am certainly not qualified to talk about the body mechanics that are discussed on the website, but I'm not sure that there is anything you might want to achieve on the drums that couldn't be better served by a different exercise. My apologies if this just demonstrates my lack of vision.
 
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