For anyone who wants to know how to get power with fast double bass

schist

Silver Member
Heavy soled/skate shoes + tight/maximum spring tension.

Try it.

I know of a few extreme metal drummers who I've seen do this. George Kollias and Dave Kinkade, to name a couple.
 

JPW

Silver Member
Yeah, it has nothing to do with thousands of hours of practice. It's just the gear. All the great drummers have wasted the time.
 

Therma lobsterdore

Senior Member
Spring tension increasing power doesn't logically make sense, it should be the opposite because the higher spring tension means you have to expend more force to overcome the force of the spring. Those drummers play well with high tension because they've been playing that way for years and years.
 

Mahi

Junior Member
Spring tension is a personal matter - you can't really just say that although my spring tension is fairly high. Also I like to play in light thin worn out converse shoes (if not just in socks ;-)). Gives me more feeling with the pedals.
 

schist

Silver Member
Yeah, it has nothing to do with thousands of hours of practice. It's just the gear. All the great drummers have wasted the time.
*eyeroll* For f**k's sake ... I shouldn't even have to mention that it takes thousands of hours of practice to get fast feet. I feel it goes without saying. If you (or anyone else for that matter) need it spelled out, then that's obviously your problem.

Spring tension increasing power doesn't logically make sense, it should be the opposite because the higher spring tension means you have to expend more force to overcome the force of the spring. Those drummers play well with high tension because they've been playing that way for years and years.
YES, but - when you're wearing heavier-soled shoes, it does. The extra weight of the shoe, coupled with the increased spring tension, increases power/beater distance. I know because I tried it today with a new pair of skate shoes I bought the other day.

Conversely, when tried with a looser spring tension in the same shoes, I find myself losing potential beater distance/power, because of (again) the extra weight of said shoe. At the same time tho - yeah, you're right, you'd get more power with a looser spring tension if you were playing in "normal" shoes (Volleys, Converses etc.), or even socked/barefoot, than a tighter one.
 
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Hedon

Senior Member
Yeah, it has nothing to do with thousands of hours of practice. It's just the gear. All the great drummers have wasted the time.
i agree
i think when you get the skill after all the hard work, equipment is like 0.01% of the whole thing, so..
 

CCdrummer

Senior Member
For guys that want to be in the upper echelon of players equipment does make a difference. I don't see olympic cyclists riding iron frame shwinn ten speeds from the eighties.
 

JPW

Silver Member
For guys that want to be in the upper echelon of players equipment does make a difference. I don't see olympic cyclists riding iron frame shwinn ten speeds from the eighties.
That's because they all have endorsements. There are other stuff than playing though that can be affected, durability for example, feel, whatever. But if your ankles or legs are outputting X joules of energy in Y seconds of time, I just can't see how pedal affects the equation, unless it has enormous amounts of friction. Unless the pedal has a battery or a motor somewhere your legs are the ones that are doing all the work.
 

Pocket-full-of-gold

Platinum Member
I just can't see how pedal affects the equation, unless it has enormous amounts of friction. Unless the pedal has a battery or a motor somewhere your legs are the ones that are doing all the work.
Tend to agree JPW.......as long as the pedals are in good working order, then the vast majority of it comes down to the drummer...not the pedals. I'm not dis'ing quality gear here either, but I feel far too much emphasis is often placed on 'the best pedals' or 'the best hi hat stand' etc etc. The drummer plays the pedals...not the other way round. There were no Eliminators or Axis or Iron Cobra's around in the 30's and 40's. Buddy, Gene and Louis seemed to do ok with the gear they had. I know footwork has evolved into 250bpm blast beats and the like, but the principle remains. I'll back Kollias can still generate some serious speed on old Speedking pedals too.

"It's the Indian....not the arrow". Can't remember who said it, but it never looses it's impact.


And back to the thread. Schist, I'm actually finding the opposite approach to footware is better for me. I've been a single pedal player for over 20 years.....I could wear anything on my feet with a single pedal. Converse, Doc Martin's, flip flops....didn't matter. Since buying double pedals a few months ago and going through the motions of teaching myself, I've found I much prefer lighter shoes with a thin sole. My Converse fit the bill perfectly. Yet another 'horses for courses' scenario I guess.
 
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JPW

Silver Member
I have been switching my spring tensions back and forth from most tense to loose as possible on a few days intervalls. What I have been finding is that it doesn't affect my speed or accuracy. The different tensions just use a little bit different muscle groups to control the rebound or the spring and for that reason they give a bit different work out for the muscles and the nerves. Thomas Lang said somewhere in his dvd that he propably has that good a control because he routinely uses very different playing surfaces and pedal (tensions) with his feet. So that got me thinking about my tension swithcin schedule.

I like how loose tension feels heels down and I like how high tension feels heels up.
 

schist

Silver Member
Yep, I've been switching my tensions back and forth for the past however many years as well. It's good to be able to adapt to many different pedal "feels", as it were.

Still, I can't help but realize most of you are missing the point - I originally posted this to suggest a method of gaining additional power in regards to double bass. Of course you still have to put in the hard yards to get good double bass, in no way did I state otherwise. I just posted what I saw from personal observation, and suggested it on here, simple as that.
 

theindian

Senior Member
or if you mic your kick drum, it will be pretty loud. Shoes are really about comfort and balance. And if you really wanna be metal you can get some triggers. ;>
 

CCdrummer

Senior Member
I still agree with schist. If you are looking for that little extra edge to get that last 5 or 10 bpm this could do it.

And not to get off topic, but slight changes in equipment does in athletics does matter. I think that they proved that just shaving your legs will take seconds off of a 20 km time trial on a bike. Doesn't sound like a lot but a couple of seconds at the olympic level is huge.
 

JPW

Silver Member
I still agree with schist. If you are looking for that little extra edge to get that last 5 or 10 bpm this could do it.

And not to get off topic, but slight changes in equipment does in athletics does matter. I think that they proved that just shaving your legs will take seconds off of a 20 km time trial on a bike. Doesn't sound like a lot but a couple of seconds at the olympic level is huge.
I can understand shaving legs in cycling, I can understand swimsuits in swimming, but this is drumming. Again, where does the extra energy come from if not from your leg? The swimsuits and shaved legs are like the friction I mentioned in the pedal, if you eliminate that with proper pedal care with appropriate lubrication and stuff like that, what is it that brings us more power if not the muscle we are using?

I think all these little tips are just subjective observations that can work in certain levels of technique development. But I'm not conviced it's a permanent solution for everyone. What I have found is that everytime you change something in your playing setup your brain sort of is happy for the change, not because the change was for the better or worse but because change in it self is "good for the brain". Same thing in athletics. You can't just lift weights the same way everyday and expect to have linear progress. For those who have been using the OP's tip for a long period of time the optimal thing to do could very well be a change away from it.

My point is, change is always good for developement, but we can't argue that some single change in equipment or technique is always best for everyone on every level of practice. AND there ARE things you shouldn't ever consider doing but this idea isn't propably one of them, go ahead and use it if it feels good for you.
 

analog-dave

Junior Member
Again, where does the extra energy come from if not from your leg?
It's not about energy, it's about force. F=ma, so with the small, but still significant, amount of extra mass a larger shoe provides, there is a bit more force. One could argue that exerting the same amount of energy on a larger mass will result in lower accelation and thus negate any effects, but that's negligible. Physics doesn't take into account the power of the mind. If we were machines, you'd be right, but we're not. If you really believe something adds power, it doesn't matter the numbers behind it, you may just be using more power and not notice it, as after all, our bodies contain a lot more strength than we are consciously able to use.

My point is, change is always good for developement, but we can't argue that some single change in equipment or technique is always best for everyone on every level of practice.
Totally agree with your point on change, but he didn't say everybody should do this no matter what, that it's some revolutionary technique. It's just an idea for those trying new ways to increase their foot power, and it doesn't matter whether it works for everyone, it matters if it works for you.
 

JPW

Silver Member
It's not about energy, it's about force. F=ma, so with the small, but still significant, amount of extra mass a larger shoe provides, there is a bit more force. One could argue that exerting the same amount of energy on a larger mass will result in lower accelation and thus negate any effects, but that's negligible. Physics doesn't take into account the power of the mind. If we were machines, you'd be right, but we're not. If you really believe something adds power, it doesn't matter the numbers behind it, you may just be using more power and not notice it, as after all, our bodies contain a lot more strength than we are consciously able to use.
What I don't understand is how the spring can provide you with anymore force or energy, springs only store energy, either directly from the leg on the beaters way to the drum head or the rebounds energy on the way back from the head. Either way it originates from your leg intially. Only way to add force / power to the stroke is to add leverage to the beater or weight and either way you ARE going to have to use the same amount of force with your leg to provide the same amount of momentum. You mention power of mind, yes I know that one, but it can't break the laws of physic, and if you can, please go see those guys that would give you millions of dollars to show them a paranormal event.

I have Iron Cobras, they have this fancy system on their axis that provides "more power", but only thing it actually does is to alter the way the axis accepts the energy of the pedal so that it's isn't a linear thing like in cheaper pedals. But it still takes the exact same energy and outputs the exact same energy, the process only feel different to my leg on a very marginal level.

BTW, I'm all up for a friendly debate about this. I'm glad if someone proves me wrong but I just haven't seen any proof as of yet. For me the "look that awesome drummer is using pedal X" just doesn't suffice as proof. (yeah, I study chemistry and physics in the university)
 

jjmason777

Senior Member
It's all just preference. Why would you wear a heavier shoe for more power, just to negate it by cranking up spring tension? That just resists the extra energy pushing on the pedal.

And don't forget, you have to pick the heavy shoe up again, so you are wasting more energy by making your foot have to move more weight.

If you don't agree, think of it in extremes: Imagine you are wearing cement shoes. It's gonna slam that pedal down with a lot of power to be sure, but you will be working much harder to lift your foot back up again, and cranking the spring won't help you then. Unless you have garage door springs on your pedals. See what I mean?
 

schist

Silver Member
I still agree with schist. If you are looking for that little extra edge to get that last 5 or 10 bpm this could do it.
I am honoured that you agree with me. Unfortunately for you, I never said this method could provide you with 5 or 10 extra BPM - you'll still be as fast (or slow) as you always were prior, but you'll just have more physical power.

As for the "springs/energy" - the tighter springs act as a counterweight to the heavier footwear. As stated before, wearing heavier-soled shoes with looser springs saw me actually losing power in my stroke. So, if you're using your ankle to make a stroke (as you would do at 170-180+BPM), it'll be way easier to do with a tighter tension than if you were playing in "normal" shoes/socks/barefoot/whatever.

Also, because some people just don't get the message, or double-bass newcomers might stumble across this thread and get the wrong impression - This is not a shortcut to help you achieve fast double bass!! There is only way to it - and it's good old-fashioned practice.
 

Tim Waterson

WFD ACEDRUMMER
Whatever works
Overall the further the beater travels the more power in the strokes .
After a certain speed youll sacrifice volume.After 250 bpm EVERYONE triggers.
Ive seen some top extreme drummers performances without triggers and after a certain speed the bass drums just dissapear so power is not a factor after a certain speed you neeed to trigger the sounds for definition.
I have 3 double pedals ALL set differently overall a loose spring will give you more power as there is less resistance on the downnstroke
Just my 3 and 1/2 cents
Tim
 
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