Fixing Tempo Problems

DrummerCA35

Senior Member
I guess I haven't learned my lesson...that in a live performance, the tempo you THINK is right can be WAY too fast when listening back to the gig. Some of the songs I've counted off are too fast, some that the guitar player has started are too fast, and the ones the keyboard has started have been off the charts fast.

As a first step, I've got the guitar player and keyboard player's backing for to me start or count off EVERY song. That includes ones where the keys or guitar normally start the song, such as "Separate Ways", "Don't Stop", "Mary Jane's Last Dance", "What I Like about You", and so on. The best I can do is to count them off, as per my Tempo app, at the correct BPM, and then (I guess) do hi-hat quarter notes until the band comes in, if necessary. I will listen to the recordings after doing this at a gig, and then see if it needs to go further, such as playing to a click.

I have found that there can be a certain member that just can't/won't listen, and STILL rush.

Then there are songs like "Jump" where there is just keys in the middle doing the riff, and it can speed up THERE, unless I again set the temp, and do hi-hat clicks. And then I wonder, is that going to sound lame...doing hi-hat clicks so the keys don't kick if off again at the wrong tempo? Or, maybe something else would blend better, like 16ths?

About playing to a click...can any of you share how you do that if ONLY the drummer is playing to the click? At most performances, only the vocals are going through the PA. At a club/corporate with sound, I think all the instruments including drums are going through the PA. I guess the thing would be in-ear monitors that double as hearing protection? I assume this only works if every instrument is going through the board/PA?

What about when only the vox are going through the PA? How does one get the click and hearing protection at the same time?

Again, I'm going to start with starting things off at the right tempo and trying to stay with it. I do need hearing protection no matter what, and any future click would need to be incorporated into that.

Finally, I've been doing this a long time...I hope I'm not too old to fix this.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks
 
You're already doing what I would have suggested, recording and listening back. That's how I reconcile things. I determine which songs are the worst for the band tempo-wise and be hyper aware on them. For starters.

IMO, the drummer should have the strongest sense of time and a will that is unwavering, no matter what the others do. Hanging tough. The click doesn't adjust to the player.

I believe the soloists rely on the drummer to not be pulled along.
 
We were covering this in another thread recently where the OP asked how to keep the lead singer on time during parts where he wasn't playing.

I never fret about keeping some discreet time if it will keep the band, or a certain member thereof, on track.

In one of my current bands, my guitar player who also sings lead on about half the songs was struggling with racing time - he'd speed up as his adrenaline picked up. We worked on it a bunch together. I'd use liveBPM during rehearsals and low-key shows and give him feedback afterwards - even show him the graph directly after a song. He is a very gracious and humble guy and was willing to work with me on it. The result is a much better band.

I think that's the bottom line - that a band member should want to improve, both personally and as a team member. I am very uncomfortable with musicians who say "well, that's just the way I play", because unless they're stellar, world-class musicians already, you are seeing them at the level of proficiency where they will be staying for the rest of their lives.

And no, you're not too old to fix this. I've spent the last six or seven years fixing this, and I'm just shy of 50. Just open your mind and be willing to admit you have areas where you can improve.

On your gear/technical questions: If there's amps that are not running through the PA, one fix is to use a small mixer for your in-ears and take lines out from those amps to your mixer. That allows you to turn down some louder instruments; you can also patch a click into your ears only.

If you are on a click and nobody else is, there's two things needed: practice and humility on everyone's part. You need to practice playing to a click live; they need to practice playing to and with you, not to the track in their head. And if anyone is having issues, swallow the pride and be willing to work on it. Maybe everyone can be on the click at the start as a yardstick and confidence builder. I believe that all musicians, not just drummers, should be proficient in playing with and around a click.

Hopefully this is any help. Cheers!
 
well most off time it happens when players don't listen to the rest of the band because most of the time they so focust on there own playing that they don't really listen what happens in the band .it happens in my band to,
the guitar players is always rushing even when I count off he eventually speeds up you can here it in the solo's they are way to fast ,so when I holds my ground you get that weird feeling somebody is pulling the song.
so now I start the drum by counting off on the light from my metronome, and hope for the best !
we speak about it but it still happens .
 
..Then there are songs like "Jump" where there is just keys in the middle doing the riff, and it can speed up THERE, unless I again set the temp, and do hi-hat clicks. And then I wonder, is that going to sound lame..


Yes, playing hi-hat clicks in the middle part with that song would sound bad in my opinion..Hi-hat clicks function better to play time for guitar-riffs or bass or only vocals, but not for a synth-part..


..About playing to a click...can any of you share how you do that if ONLY the drummer is playing to the click?..


First of all, in my opinion you should play with the click and not to the click..Playing to the click sounds a little like trying a lot to play your notes completely equal to the click, while i think is better to see the click as a guidance, something to kinda 'hang into'..Like, the groove of the song that you play should hang into the click..

When you are the only one hearing the click, means that the rest of the band has to be able from their side to hang into your groove..If that is not happening you will feel like you are constantly fighting the tempo, and, most likely, eventually loose the click..

If you would try to solve that with playing very strict to your click while the rest of the band is going everywhere, the complete feeling of the song will be gone..

Meaning, in this case the quality from the rest of the band matters a lot..
 
If you're the only one hearing the click - and you should be the only one - it's very easy to make that work.

#1 - Understand that your job is to play with the click, not the band. That may sound odd, but it refers to #2.

#2 - Your mix is crucial to the success of working with a click. You need to hear the click equal or perhaps louder than your drums, and everything else should be considered a potential detriment. What I mean is, attempting to get a good band mix will actually work against you. The click will get buried in the mix, so you'll turn it up. Then you won't hear your drums, so you'll turn them up. Then the guitar is too low, so you turn it up... and so on until you're deaf.

Like any good mix, the way you boost a part is often to turn everything else down. Same with your mix - bring everything else down so you can focus on the click and your drums. Sure you'll want to hear some parts for the arrangement, vocals for cues, etc. But do not go for a 'good' musical mix, it's not going to help you. I call it a "need to know" mix. It's not so much about what you hear, as what you don't hear.

Yes, that means you'll be hearing and playing to an imbalanced or maybe sparse mix, but that's what success with a click requires. Does that diminish your enjoyment of the gig? It shouldn't, as long as you like playing drums. If you have a click, it's your job to work with it, not sit back and hear a great mix.

I've worked with clicks and sequence live and in the studio since 1984, and have never EVER strayed from the click by simply employing the above "need to know" method.

Bermuda
 
..I've worked with clicks and sequence live and in the studio since 1984, and have never EVER strayed from the click by simply employing the above "need to know" method..


That method makes sense, but only if you work with musicians who are able to actually follow the drummer regarding the tempo and feeling of the song..

Another requirement for that method to be succesful, for example in a little to modest bar, would be that the guitar or bass player is willing to turn his or her amp down a little, since trying to hear and play with a click when a Marshall stack next to you is blowing the windows out of the building is not that easy and such things actually happen a lot..

I agree btw that a drummer should be the only one hearing a click, but, for example, a percussion sequence can be also helpful (and more easy) for some other players to hear and play along with..
 
And then I wonder, is that going to sound lame...

If someone cares that there are f****ing hi-hats during the "keyboard only" parts when your cover band is playing Jump, then they're a musician, and they've been judging your band all night anyway. Don't cater to them. No one that matters gives a s**t if you keep time on the hi-hats, and anyone on the dance floor will subconsciously appreciate the steady pace. Bash quarter notes on a loose pair of 24" 2002s, if that's what it takes.

If you're the only one hearing the click (common for many bands), you'll need to state the time when drums are not playing. It could be with stick clicks, 8th notes on a closed hi-hat, soft quarter notes on a ride, etc. Lots of bands do this, and it's not nearly as intrusive as you think it is. The best part is that, over time, your bandmates will have no choice but to develop better timing, and, someday, they might even appreciate it.

As for tempo, most songs benefit from a slight increase from the recorded tempo when played live, usually 2 to 4 bpms. A 4 bpm increase is usually perfect for most rock, but 2 bpm is better for funk/disco/rnb because the groove can get nastier if the rhythm section knows what's up.

If you want mix that you can live with, IEMs are the way to go, and once you get custom molded IEMS, you'll throw out everything else. You'll need a small mixer beside you to mix in the click, a line from the PA, and a drum mic or two (one kick and one overhead will do the trick). Anything that isn't mic'd won't get to your ears, unless your IEMs have the ambient vent option -- which I also recommend.

So... the live click track thing is a bit of a money pit at first. But these things you buy once.
 
Play to a click. Play to a click. Play to a click.

If you haven't guessed, I play to a click at ALL times. Home practice, Recording, Rehearsals, Live.

Here's how my setup works:

Small 5 channel mixer with a headphone out for my In-ears.
CH 1 Click
CH 2 Feed of the live band
CH 3 Backing Tracks (if any)
CH 4 External Click (This is for situations where the band has backing tracks on some of the songs, but not all of them and requires me to have a metronome set up in addition to the one that would feed in with the tracks)
CH 5 (Electronic Drum Pads/Triggers if any)

Most of the time I only need channels 1-3 or 1-2. Channels 4 and 5 are rare occasions.

I can mix the volume of the click vs the live band however I need it on my own with this setup. When it comes to my live band mix I just tell the monitor engineer what I want and how to mix it at sound check. If I am not afford a sound check it's done on the fly during the first song and I have to give him a series of hand gestures, lol.

For specific scenarios that you brought up, like another instrument starting the song before you, or the drums dropping out at some point in the middle of a song I do Hi Hat clicks with my foot. Typically a quarter note, however if it's a song that really needs instrument A or B to shine in that section I drop it to a half note as to not step on their toes. I ask the band what they prefer, and sometimes they want that count to be subtle, and sometime they want it loud with a stick in every break. I leave it to their preference.
 
That method makes sense, but only if you work with musicians who are able to actually follow the drummer regarding the tempo and feeling of the song..

That's a given, and sadly, some players (and singers) are out there on their own, thinking everyone should just follow whoever's leading at the moment... or that music has to breathe... yadda yadda rationalization-for-not-being-able-to-keep-time yadda yadda. Players like that usually don't work much, and there's no excuse for tolerating such players, unless they're paying everyone to be in the band. Even then, it's very frustrating. Too many fish in the sea to put up with players who can't keep reasonable time and follow the drummer.

Bermuda
 
A few years back, I had the same horror experience listening to recordings of my live band performances. While I'd love to go the click-track and IEM route, that hasn't been all that viable due to expense and the PA/monitor set up of the two bands I play in.

So here's what I did that's a cheaper/easier way to get mostly there and quickly. I use a Tama Rhythm Watch metronome with 30 programmable settings and have that mounted to my high hat stand. Just a couple seconds with that sets up my click off to the next song. Then, during the song I use the app Live BPM on my phone that's also mounted to my high hat stand. I may vary a wee bit but this allows me to monitor where the band and I am at tempo-wise continuously. Both are mounted under the hats, mostly out of the way and unobtrusive.

So for about a $100 outlay, you can be steady-Eddy at this weekend's gig. Not click-track perfect but not far off either. It's helped my playing and the band's groove immensely.
 
What about when only the vox are going through the PA? How does one get the click and hearing protection at the same time?

My setup is similar to the one Living Dead Drummer outlined. It's simple, and relatively inexpensive: small mixer, tablet with backing tracks, external click for songs with no tracks, in-ears, and DI box.

You are the only one who needs to hear the click. Everyone else has to lock in with you. Easier said than done!

If you do decide to play to a click at shows, use it for personal practice and band rehearsals as well. Decide on tempos for each song - same as original, or what your band prefers. Write them out, and keep the list on hand. If your tempo app saves lists, program the tempos into it.

Even though they know you are playing to a click, at tempos you've all agreed on, some people in the band may still rush. When you feel/hear them stray, you'll be tempted to follow them. Don't. Lock with the click, and lay into the hats and snare to cue those players re the tempo.

If they don't get the message, stop the song. Calmly remind them you are playing to a click, and they need to listen/lock to the tempo you are playing.

I've gone through this with a few bands. It can take some time to get everyone on the same page. You may need to crank the click for the first little while. So you can hear it above the band, and not get pulled if/when someone strays.

When I use a click, I don't have any drums in my mix. NONE! A typical mix for me is: left ear = click; and right ear = a mix of lead vocal, bass guitar, and backing tracks when needed. Everything else, including my drums, usually bleeds through.

It can take some time getting used to hearing less. I've spent a lot of time playing to just a click, running through songs in my head. It's a great way to test how well you know a song.

That was longer than intended.
 
I practice to a metronome a lot. Helps keep me focused on the tempo and feel of songs and exercises.
Live, I just set a tempo and don't really have an issue. I'm blessed for this I'll admit as many horror stories have been told of the other side.

I love the recording & playback plan. I don't do that nearly enough and will make it a goal to do from now on.
 
A few years back, I had the same horror experience listening to recordings of my live band performances. While I'd love to go the click-track and IEM route, that hasn't been all that viable due to expense and the PA/monitor set up of the two bands I play in.

So here's what I did that's a cheaper/easier way to get mostly there and quickly. I use a Tama Rhythm Watch metronome with 30 programmable settings and have that mounted to my high hat stand. Just a couple seconds with that sets up my click off to the next song. Then, during the song I use the app Live BPM on my phone that's also mounted to my high hat stand. I may vary a wee bit but this allows me to monitor where the band and I am at tempo-wise continuously. Both are mounted under the hats, mostly out of the way and unobtrusive.

So for about a $100 outlay, you can be steady-Eddy at this weekend's gig. Not click-track perfect but not far off either. It's helped my playing and the band's groove immensely.

What a great idea! We don't suffer from this stuff as much as others, but I'm gonna use that Live BPM app just to give me an idea where we are... I love it! My phone is right on hand anyway...
 
Some great stuff here thanks to all for sharing experience. This situation affects me too and i wondered how folks feel about using the flashing light as a reference as opposed to audible click?

There's 9 of us in my band and I'm the only one with a click (Yamaha Clickstation). I have it audible (IEM) for rehearsal and yes the band can get out of sync with me and then I stop the song.

But playing live I find there is often a bit of tempo drift factor - just a few bpm. Combination of excitement, imperfect monitoring, the dance moves - all those on-stage distractions. It's not a recital after all and we don't manage to stay on a grid. Provided tempo errors are small I think staying tight is more important so I'm not concerned about keeping over-rigid control.

When I try with an audible click (a) whilst we are off-grid the difference drives me nuts, and (b) I end up locking back to the click in an abrupt way (or so it seems to me at least). I find following the light is more forgiving, it's easier to flex the band as a unit smoothly, gradually back (say) after a slight push upward for a chorus or solo.

Just my thoughts.
 
When I try with an audible click (a) whilst we are off-grid the difference drives me nuts, and (b) I end up locking back to the click in an abrupt way (or so it seems to me at least). I find following the light is more forgiving, it's easier to flex the band as a unit smoothly, gradually back (say) after a slight push upward for a chorus or solo.

It's possible (and desirable and professional) to play entire shows without EVER getting "off-grid" or having to "flex the band" back onto the click. The trick is to not allow yourself to be pulled away by a bandmate who is rushing or dragging -- plow right through their crappy timing, and stay on the click at all costs. You have the click, so it's your responsibility to communicate the tempo. In your mix, set the click louder than any other element, and lock in. The band should lock in with YOU -- not the other way around.

Record yourself and the click, so you can visualize your tendencies -- are you more likely to rush or drag -- and make an effort to correct them. This is hard work, of course, but very much worth it.
 
Look your bandmates in the eye, slowly wave your hand in front of their face one time and quietly say "There was no tempo problem".
 
I use Pro Metronome on my phone. It has a Stage Mode for set lists. I have it set to turn off after 4 measures. You can also plug in a Peterson Body Beat in the headphone jack and leave it on through the song. The whole band could actually have them to feel the beat.
 

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..The trick is to not allow yourself to be pulled away by a bandmate who is rushing or dragging -- plow right through their crappy timing, and stay on the click at all costs..


Better to apply the 'at all costs'-theory only at rehearsals and if things at rehearsals not work out fluently, skip (!) the click at a live show because the complete show will feel like a huge drag and musical fight for everyone involved, band and audience in this case..

In my opinion is better to have a band that rushes a little every now and then (within limits ofcourse), than a band completely not playing comfortable because of the 'holy' click..
 
Better to apply the 'at all costs'-theory only at rehearsals and if things at rehearsals not work out fluently, skip (!) the click at a live show because the complete show will feel like a huge drag and musical fight for everyone involved, band and audience in this case..

This hasn't been my experience, playing with at least 6 bands that use click tracks for the whole show.

If someone has bad timing, but knows that the drummer will flex -- he/she will probably NEVER fix the bad timing. The band is sure to have a few moments of awkwardness, but it will usually be so minor that someone on the dance floor won't mind, or even notice. And if things get really off the rails, to where recovery isn't possible, then it's time to end the song as a band, smile, and count off the next song, the sooner the better.

Better to plow through the bad timing, and enable your band to become better with time, over time.
 
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